Isolation, assertiveness and infringement of rights

Hi,

I use to lurk on these boards a time ago, when I was jobless, house-bound. At the time, I could identify with all other SAers, but didn't really know how bad I was, or whether I suffered from SA at all or a case of lack of social skills and shyness. I did not go the psychotherapist route, instead I tried finding a job, in hope that I can start afresh and make friends at work.

So anyway, I've recently got a job, and all of my team have started together - So were all new. It has barely been a few days, and I am already isolated from the team. I have been teased, my opinions have been ignored, I have been talked over, excluded from conversations and I am talked about in the third person right in front of me.

I thought I was just being paranoid at first. I was noticing how the rest of them were regularly talking amongst each other and how much they seemed to be enjoying it. Whereas, when they talked to me, despite my efforts to smile, make eye contact and laugh, they were being awkard with me. They were talking to me as if I was inadequate.

The worst situation was, when a conversation I had started, got the group talking, but funnily enough had me excluded. If I made an effort to make one one one conversation with one of them, the answer wouldn't be to me, in fact they wouldn't even look at me, they would address it to the group.

At Lunch time, I was sitting alone, and nobody made an effort to talk to me. I tried to say something, but found I was being ignored. Now, after a few days, it's quite clear I am being isolated. Everything I say is challenged, questioned or even greeted with rolling eyes.

This just makes me realise just how bad my SA is and how much stigma SA carries, and unfortunately, how obvious it is to "normal" people. They had me worked out within hours.

What am I doing wrong? I have a made list of things, that has given me away to them:

* I have spoken too softly, that my voice has quivered and broken in sentence. Often causing them to ask for a clarification of what I said, which can trigger a lot of anxiety, and I end up saying it even worse and they look at me confused.
* I have not taken the opportunities to join in on their conversations
* I have been too nice, smiled too much, laughed at the wrong times
* I have been unable to communicate my opinions in a manner that would create interest or my opinions are just too different.
* I have let them violate my rights, without actually being aware that I am being put down.
* I have justified myself too much, thinking I must give an explanation for everything - Such as why I talk the way I do, why I do things the way I do.
* I have blushed, my facial expressions look stiff.
* I am trying too much to be a people pleaser.

A lot of this comes under assertiveness, something that I must hugely lack. But I really can't tell when my rights are being violated and how I should answer to it.

I want to know if you have similar experiences at work, and how do you deal with it?

hello

hello man, well, sadly i don't have any experience in jobs , i would love to have your courage for having a job
and for what you describe, your teammates are lossers, you shouldn't waste your time trying to befriend of those jerks


about the list you made, i think these are the points where you are failing

* I have let them violate my rights, without actually being aware that I am being put down.
* I have justified myself too much, thinking I must give an explanation for everything - Such as why I talk the way I do, why I do things the way I do
* I am trying too much to be a people pleaser.


and i repeat, i would really love to have your courage not only for having a job, but also for starting conversations
take care man, and as i said, don't waste your time in those lossers.

I recognize myself in your situation from school and not from work
since i haven't had a job yet.What i have realised, that many people
refuse to realise, is that many people are just garbage.They will piss
on people they think wont do anything to them back, and nobody will
tell them that what they are doing is wrong.

"I am talked about in the third person right in front of me."

This has happened to me to, it's fucking amazing isn't it?
The reason they are doing is is because they have no respect for you,
they don't need to have any respect for you because you are not part
of the "gang".

"This just makes me realise just how bad my SA is and how much stigma SA carries"

I hope you also realise that many of the so called "normal" people are
people with bad qualities, people you don't really want as close friends.

All the points in your list are good points.
But the most important thing is that you should not be putting yourself
down and think that they are any better than you, people who make fun of
you simply because they see an opportunity are utter shit, nothing you
really want to be friends with.

Rainman

I got upset reading your post. These people are jerks and not worth your spending one braincell of anxiety on them. Maybe you could see your SA skills of being able to be alone and self-sufficient as a positive in this situation. Take some power back - you can let them know you think they're total jerks beneath your notice by just not responding to them in any way. You don't need to crawl for their friendship. Save your worries for people who matter.

Focus on getting what you can out of this job (money, improve your CV, training or whatever) and what it could lead to. If it doesn't improve then work towards finding another job rather than just leaving. Most people are not as bad as these people in my experience. Remember just getting yourself that job and turning up in spite of all of this is a huge achievement which you should congratulate yourself for.

Rainman

I got upset reading your post. These people are jerks and not worth your spending one braincell of anxiety on them. Maybe you could see your SA skills of being able to be alone and self-sufficient as a positive in this situation. Take some power back - you can let them know you think they're total jerks beneath your notice by just not responding to them in any way. You don't need to crawl for their friendship. Save your worries for people who matter.

Focus on getting what you can out of this job (money, improve your CV, training or whatever) and what it could lead to. If it doesn't improve then work towards finding another job rather than just leaving. Most people are not as bad as these people in my experience. Remember just getting yourself that job and turning up in spite of all of this is a huge achievement which you should congratulate yourself for.

Hello Rainman, im really glad your at least getting into the deep end by going to work and trying to make friends, the behaviour you have described has actually started to happen with my friends from high school, they bully and talk about me in the third person, i think i come across as too nice when really most people just want to have fun and let loose, normally it takes a while for me to relax and let loose, where as all my friends are always relaxed and talkative, so ive decided to seek out new friends, that was hard to let go of them but they were just insulting me and patronising me to the point where i couldnt call them friends anymore. give it time, good luck rainman and things will improve for you im sure

Maybe you could see your SA skills of being able to be alone and self-sufficient as a positive in this situation. Take some power back

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Yes, I have been thinking of doing exactly that. It will make me a loner in the group, and I have normally looked at this as a bad thing. When I was at Junior school, I use to be on my own, but didn't really know it was a bad thing. Later, in college, I bumped into this girl from my junior school. The first thing she said to me was, "You, use to be that loner, didn't you" I understand just what it meant to be a loner.

But now, I am thinking, is it really a bad thing to be a "loner" Surely, there must be a latent positive in this, surely I can derive some power from this. I really shouldn't be worrying about whether my co-workers are including me in their conversations or not, rather I should learn to enjoy my own solitude and let them make the efforts, if they want to.

The other day my co-worker actually said to me "You, stay within yourself" it was directed at me as an attack, and it left me somewhat dazed when they said it, but now reflectong on it. What is wrong with being within yourself?

I note, that many people who are isolated, tend to be "too nice" I don't really understand why being nice would be to our detriment. You would think people would like somebody who is nice, warm, approachable.
I think what it really is meant by being "too nice" is we let them violate our right:

I know why I let them violate my rights, because:

* I don't want to be confrontational. I get a lot of anxiety, when confronting somebody, especially when they are more confident than me and my mind begins to blank, voice begins to quiver, become too soft and break, the works.

* I don't want to look arrogant, humorless and difficult(i.e. not nice) it could be, that when they tease you, talk about you in third person is not hostile or is meant in jest or is just how they talk.

* I don't think a confrontation would be worth it, and I just ignore it and remain quiet.

When you have SA, you are already a bit paranoid and we could exaggerate what is really happening. So it sort of blurs the divide between what is really a violation of our rights and what is just harmless talk. How do you tell? What do you consider a violation of your rights?

I note, that many people who are isolated, tend to be "too nice" I don't really understand why being nice would be to our detriment. You would think people would like somebody who is nice, warm, approachable.

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It is true. The fact is, very nice and agreeable people are often seen as weak people, and weakness is generally despised and rejected by society. Making friends and being gentle with an obviously weak person might show that you are weak as well, and this might be the main reason why a lot of people behave like this, especially in a group. It's something like a social survival game.

I have experienced similar situations in the past and found that things do get better when you show a bit more "toughness", so to speak. I am not saying that you should become nasty or impolite, but try to look like you really don't care so much about being liked, and they will respect you more, and like you more in the end. If somebody makes a joke, you don't have to laugh. Maybe it wasn't such a good joke, keep silent and let him/her feel embarassed. You don't have to always explain your opinions in a reasonable and logical way, you can be a little more assertive or even slightly rude (not too much, we can't afford to be truly aggressive people, it would not work). You do not necessarily have to return a favour immediately, you can take your time like you don't really care. Etc...

Believe me, it works, maybe it will take some time to find your own balance and your own way of playing this part, but in some time it will become natural and you might even start feeling like it IS your true personality.

It is also possible that you have come across some unusually nasty and ugly-inside (ehm, sorry for my poor english )people, in which case of course perhaps all of the above will not be of much help. But try, and use them to make practice by trial and error, look at their reactions to your behaviour with the spirit of a scientist observing a bunch of barking dogs!

I wish you good luck!!

When you have SA, ...it sort of blurs the divide between what is ...a violation of our rights and what is just harmless talk. How do you tell? What do you consider a violation of your rights?

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I have been teased....my opinions have been ignored, I have been talked over, excluded from conversations...I am talked about in the third person right in front of me.

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What are your 'rights' in a social interaction? People are free to choose who they talk to and socialise with, including at work. But deliberate exclusion, teasing etc in the workplace is bullying.

- being able to take teasing and dish it out is pretty normal. Do they tease each other as well, or just pick on you?

- extraverts socialise like a game of tennis, batting conversation between them. If you're not really in their face they don't notice you, and they can talk over, and exclude people without noticing it. They're not actually violating your rights for being thoughtless. (I've found a lot of extraverts have no perception, no insight).

- talking about you in the 3rd person is the one I find disturbing. It depends on the situation. People who chat a lot and get used to someone being quiet can talk for them - eg if they're talking about a meeting and they're saying 'oh X won't want to do that, he can do the minutes.." or something. It may not be deliberately mean but it is treating you as though you don't count. I think you should find the courage to confront them about it when it happens, even in a sort of jokey way. 'Hey, I'm sitting right here guys..."

Maybe as the last post said you should just observe them like a scientist. If you do think you're being deliberately used as some sort of "weak' target then you need to confront them, or get some help to confront them (your boss). Your workplace has to keep you safe from workplace discrimination and harassment under workplace health and safety laws(depending what country you live in of course..).

Hello Rainman

I know how you feel. I have been in a similar situation and it can be very hurtful.
I think its great that you shared this with everyone else, and you did so very articurlatly. In your post you had no problems expressing yourself clearly and in an interesting way.
For you and everyone else who share their feelings and experiences on this forum, I really admire your courage.
Something that struck a chord with me was when you wrote that you did not laugh at the right times. That happens to me. My timing when communicating seems to be so wrong and its frustrating because i dont know how to make it right.
I dont know the right things to say and i dont know the right questions to ask. And i dont know what else to write now, so I'll just leave it at that.

I've often been bullied like this & left jobs because of it.
When I went back to Uni a while ago I was taking medication..which controlled my SA & I made friends quite easily because of that. There was a girl who started on the same course who obviously struggled to 'fit in' & it was interesting to see it from the other side for once. Luckily the people at Uni were a nice bunch & although she visibly made people uncomfortable...& people talked about her a bit...she didn't get a hard time. By the time we all left she was much more confident & I'm sure she's doing well.
People get put on edge by other peoples nervousness...the same way you get put at ease when someone seems relaxed. I think the way you get treated depends on how intelligent & kind the folk you are with are. The people I went to Uni with were nice & open-minded...the people I've always worked with have been close-minded & judgemental. Its really hard to get on with people like that...so I wouldn't bother trying.

One of the girls at the place my husband works was trying to get the attention of his co-worker, who was listening to music through headphones. She'd say his name in a sing-songy voice, getting louder each chance. Finally my husband asked her why she was being so annoying. She answered, "Gee, that's just who I am, thanks." and left the room. My husband worried to me that he made her upset and went to apologize later, but it turned out to have been no big deal to her. This girl doesn't even have to work but does so she can socialize. Definitely NOT something I can relate to, LOL.

Anyway, I wish I can tell people off or simply what I think about THEM (they're too loud, boring, gossipy, etc). The consequence cannot be much worse than being called quiet. Then again it's hard to do that to people you have to be around (in-laws). I hate the old man "teasers" the most because then you look like a bad sport for not going along.

There are a heck of a lot of personality types out there that strike me as being more unfriendly or bland than being quiet, but somehow it seems only the quiet ones are told so to their face.

What strikes me reading all these posts is how articulate, perceptive and intelligent everyone sounds. Why is this great bunch of people made to feel so bad about themselves out in the community? What a waste of human talent!

So today at work I tried not to give a care about others, their conversations and just let myself "be within myself" it was liberating, and funnily enough, they actually talked to me more. It suddenly seemed like, perhaps, I was exaggerating their actions towards me.

It suddenly makes a big difference, if you do not actually bother with what they are doing and speak to them confidently whenever they talk to you. In fact, I found turning the tables on them, by asking them clarify what they said, gave me a litte power over them.

I think this is a skill we need to learn, and the more we practice it, the more confident we will feel. Our biggest enemy, is not them, but our overly self-conscious minds. The greater the control you can exert over your own mind, the lesser SA will affect you. I found concentrating completely on my work today gave me that power I needed.

I was aware of the conversations going on around me, but I did not let it make me insecure, I just smiled at them and what that did was, it transformed the usual thought of "Oh, they are so much more competent than me" to "Oh, nice conversation to listen to while I work." It was better listening, like a detached observer, than participating in it.

very very good rainman.

you are a superb example for others to follow in terms
of what you do on and offline.

you made decisions which led you to get a job.
You have had some not so good times and worries
which is normal - you used the forum to have input.
You went back to your job with a different attitude
and yo used the law of detachment.
You decided to play with it all a bit and see what happened
and you tried to looked at things for what they really were/are
and found some things you might misinterpreted while
you also experiment with your own "powers" so to speak
and see the positive effects it has on you and others.

what more can i say.

Maybe im exagerating here but this is the sort of
"worry => adapt" thread that should stay at the top
of the homepage a all time for all to see.

way to go!

Olivier

Fantastic Rainman - well done. We all know how hard it is and it's inspiring to see your strength unfolding as you get back some power in the situation. I'll remember this tale whenever I'm feeling phobic. I look forward to the unfolding story...

I agree with Oli - this is a really inspirational thread. How do we ask the moderator to keep it prominent?

Heartbeat said:

articulate, perceptive and intelligent !

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I can't say that for myself but that's what i felt first thing i came to this forum. That's a real shame.

Yes no matter who you are you have special qualities, skills and talents, and it deeply upsets me so many people here feel so controlled, frightened and held back by their SA. Also that it is so unrecognised in the workplace and community.

That's why it's good to hear a 'real-time' positive story like this one, which we can all learn from. And good to see the support this forum can provide.

It's about being less frightened and more accepting of having SA. If you only had one leg you wouldn't expect to do what you can with 2 legs, so why do we beat ourselves up over it all the time.

Embrace your SA - get back some power!

Oli025 said:

very very good rainman.

you are a superb example for others to follow in terms
of what you do on and offline.

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Wow, thanks ,Oliver and Heartbeat. There is still a long way to go before I am truly confident, but I think I have taken the first few steps towards it.

Next, I am going to try and find a hobby, so I can socialise with like-minded people, who share my interest and cultivate my skills. I am really into Photography, but have never quite mustered the courage to join photography clubs and go out and take photographs. I am sure though, I can use the same laws of detachment for that effect as well.

Ultimately, the battle is not against people, or even SA, but gaining control and sovereignty of my own mind. I truly believe what you said heartbeat, that we all have our special skills and talents, but we deny ourselves them, because of limiting thoughts and belief systems.

In this case, I think what was bringing me down, was the desire to be the communicator, the popular one, even the leader. By accepting the moment as it is, i.e., not amongst the popular, not the communicator, not the leader, I have been able to become the detached listner/observer and in fact have found it to be a much more powerful position.

By not wasting my time on idle chatter, "Which actor/actress is hot" I am able to conserve my energies, I can get more work done and I can establish an independence from the group - I am my own man. That said, socialising is a healthy thing, and for that I have some good friends and family outside of work, and I am sure, once I take up a hobby, I will have more.

This completely takes away any power the group/team weilded over me. I no longer have to be accepted in their clique. If they talk to me, fine, if they don't, that's fine as well.

Embrace your SA - get back some power!

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This is gold - take it!

extraverts socialise like a game of tennis, batting conversation between them

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Yes, and some of these "conversations" are what i will call
"emotional masturbation", endless pointless babble they engage in
because of the extreme fear they have of not being "cool" or part
of the gang. On "reality" shows like "big-brother" you find the worst
extraverts, exhibitionists with amputated personalities whos biggest
fear is being alone for more than five minutes.

Of course not all of them are like that, but i have found that many
people who are seen as social are really shallow and have few
opinions about anything important. And some of them do not have
any real social skills at all, they can only function well among other
extraverts.

If you're not really in their face they don't notice you, and they can talk over, and exclude people without noticing it.

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It is true that some people are just thoughtless and superficial and don't
really mean what they do in the negative way you might think they do.
But in many, many cases people do actually have bad intentions, they
are actually trying to make you feel negatively about yourself.

If people spread lies about you, speak to you in an angry voice for no
reason, reacts totally out of proportion for a mistake you have made,
or constantly throws sarcastic comments at you, then don't tell yourself that
the scumbag isn't doing it intentionally.
Some people are simply trash.

(I've found a lot of extraverts have no perception, no insight)

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So true.It really isn't a virtue to be social, anyone needs some
social skills and some degree of comfort around other people,
but if you constantly need to surround yourself with people then you
have a problem.