_________________ I wish we could see into the future of peoples lives when they are born. Then we could kill all babies who's going to be bad people. Robbers, bullying kids, murderers etc. Just put a gun at the baby's head.
Joined: Apr 28, 2008 Posts: 41 Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:33 am Post subject:
bleach wrote:
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2) Women mentally have not evolved since the caveman days, when women back then would gravitate towards the bad ass of the tribe for protection from all the horrible creatures that could have bitten your head off eg. sabre tooth tigers.
If you're trying to prove yourself as the "nice guy" alternative to the jerks, the guy who cares more about personality than looks, then it really doesn't help your case that you refer to women as mentally inferior/less evolved than you are.
Then how do you explain why so women habitually date mentally/or physically abusive men or the "bad boys" and thugs?? I am sorry but I have lost count at the amount of stories I have been told about women who have been in abusive relationships, yet these same women will reject decent men, because they are seen to be "too nice" or "boring". Secondly, I don't see myself as mentally superior to anyone, but answer me this what have women invented???? Who invented the modern gadgets that make our lives more safe,convenient and comfortable eg. Air travel,computers, advances in medical technology??? - answer MEN.
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Yes, some average looking guys excel at dating, but we are talking about less than 5% of the male population. These average guys can play mind games with women, and as much as women will deny it, they do play mind games.
How the fuck would know? By your own admission, you don't know anything about dating, and you are clearly very ignorant as to how the opposite sex thinks and feels.
I never have professed to be an expert on dating, but even accomplished pick up artists and dating coaches teach their students to use psychological and emotional manipulation to get women into bed, and some men are very good at it. Who the hell knows how the opposite sex thinks?, I'm no mind reader. All I can say is that when I have approached women I have always done so as a gentleman and in good faith. When women have rejected me, I never got mad, or pushed the point (I do know what the word "no" means), I thanked them for their time, and wished them a good day.
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March 1992: Myself, and a friend of mine, went on a two week south pacific island cruise aboard the cruise liner "the Fairstar". On this ship there were more girls than guys, but this did not make it easy to meet women. My friend who in the eyes of women would be considered universally handsome, had women hanging off him like a cheap suit, and was with a different woman every night. Me, short and ugly, the women would not even give me the time of day, and I noticed that all the other ugly/average guys would be by themselves, and the good looking guys would always be in the company of women.
February 1994: I attended the Red Cross "Desperate and Dateless" ball held at the Sydney Convention Centre, Darling Harbour. At the end of the night, all the good looking people were paired up, and just like the example above, all the ugly (me), and average looking people were by themselves.
1. The only "universally handsome" trait is confidence. You didn't have it.
Bullshit!!, how can you comment on the above??, when you weren't even there. When I was trying to meet women at the above functions, they made it very clear they were not interested within the first few seconds of meeting me ie. they gave me silent treatment, acted coldly/rudely, and made no attempt to participate in the conversations I tried to initiate. I wasn't even given a fucking chance for those women to get to know me. With regards to my friend that I went with on the cruise, women were staring at him, and were giving him the eye, so it had nothing to do with confidence, it came down to pure physical attraction, nothing else. Believe me, I have taken a ton of shit and abuse from women that I did not deserve. Yes, I agree confidence is important, but in the situations above, it all came down to looks - nothing else.
2. So you flippantly call women shallow for not wanting to hook up with average or ugly-looking guys. And yet, even after complete rejection, you still refuse to lower your own standards and settle for a less attractive woman. Instead you mope about all the good-looking people who are getting action. Who's the shallow one in this scenario?
I don't apologise for calling some women shallow, because they are. And no, I don't have high standards, when it comes to women, I rarely if ever approach very attractive women, as they are way out of my league, if anything I prefer women who are moderately attractive, trustworthy and easy to get along with, but even average looking women have rejected me, so don't be so presumptuous, you don't even know me yet you insult me.
You don't respect women and you don't care about personality. Hypocrite.
Fuck off you moron, and you stick your feminist shaming language up for your arse, and do you think that the bad boys and thugs who so many women worship respect women?? Here are some of the "respectful" (sarcasm intended) things some bad boys and thugs have done to their girlfriends and wives (and these are all TRUE stories).
1) Threaten to kill them and their families with a shotgun.
2) Punch them in the stomach when they were pregnant.
3) Jam a glass into their eye.
4) Belt the general crap out of them.
5) Cheat on them ie. be unfaithful.
The above are true stories that women themselves have told me about what their ex-boyfriends and husbands did to them, and yet these same women reject decent men because they think they are "boring" and have no confidence. Do you think that true male strength and confidence, is subjecting women to both mental/or physical abuse?? Of course it's fucking not!!!! So don't ever fucking accuse me of having no respect for women, as I have never have, and never would mistreat women. And I do value personality and character way above looks in women. The women, I find most attractive are NOT supermodels or glamours, they are the ones who are warm,feminine and moderately attractive. I couldn't care less if she is carrying a few extra pounds, or she has a few lines on her face, I'm nothing to look at, so who am I to judge??. Once again, you are being presumptuous, you don't even know me, or have met me.
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I dont think they want a badass type either they just want someone who is confident and who will stand up for themselves and will be a leader, in general, not always though, two people can click for no apparent reason, it just happens sometimes. ..
Exactly. Finally, a moment of sanity...
Finally, why do you come on this forum and hang shit on us genuine nice guys, whose only crime in your eyes, is that we have not been able to establish relationships with women?? (even though we have tried and failed). I bet you are the type of person who laughs at people in wheelchairs, or blind people. Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking any anyones sympathy as there people in this world who are far worse off than me. I have got a good job, food in my stomach, and a roof over my head. The reason I and many other "love-shy" men have joined this forum is to share our experiences, not to gain anyones sympathy, and your presumptuous comments and shaming language are not welcome. If you are going to express your opinion, back up it with facts, not emotions and false presumptions.
I've also never had a girldfriend. What infuriates me even more than that is that I've had offers, and have rejected them because I was just too afraid. The last offer I had was from a girl I didn't know especially well, but I knew her enough to chat too her.
Anyway, this is about 3 or 4 years ago now, and she had apparently had a crush on me for years at school. She asked me out, and I was very afraid of the situation. Firstly because I didn't know how to act around her or what to do socially (like where to take her on dates and stuff, how often or not often should I try to arrange some kind of date, or phone her, or text her, etc). The second reason was a horrible one, and it was I was afraid of what other people would thing of me being with her. Would people wonder what I saw in her? Would they wonder what she saw in me?
I feel really bad about it. What makes it worse is the way I reacted, I gave a very cold and hard "no, I'm not interested".
Even worse than that is she tried again - I think she actually understood about how I was probably very worried and anxious - yet I did the same thing again, and I think I said something nastyish about her to her best friend that I didn't mean. It sucks because she was a really nice girl, and I feel shitty more for the way I treated her than the way I treated myself.
I don't think how attractive you are really matters if you have social anxiety. I'm well aware that I'm a pretty good looking guy, but it doesn't matter. Girls will approach me randomly occassionally - I've had some very uncomfortable situations where women have pretty obviously been coming onto me randomly in public places, unprovoked. It scares me to death, especially if they comment on certain tells that I'm nervous such as when I start sweating a lot or avoid eye contact, etc.
Really though, looks don't matter. If you have the confidence to get a girlfriend you will. First impressions don't really count I don't think in this area.
Replying to recluse's comment.
Yeah, Im in the same boat as you but i'm 10 years younger. Haha I would like to give you advice but, just like you, I haven't done anything with girls. I haven't even kissed a girl. And it gets me down because I hear about kids my age literally fucking, and I haven't even had a kiss. The real sad part about it though is that girls actually think I'm "cute" and I still havent met a new hot girl this whole year. I have heard that 5 hot girls think that I am a "total cutie" off the top of my head. And thats only in the last half year or so. Don't mean to brag but it's getting me top my point. Since I still haven't even thought about talking to these girls (because of SAD) people think i'm gay. They don't realize what I have, because talking with the guys isn't a problem with me. They think I'm funny. But once I get in the ring with the ladies, the SAD kicks in. All of my guy friends like me but I know that they still have that thought in their head that I may be homosexual. It's embarrasing and it pisses me off. Just wanted to let you know that im going through the girl inexperience thing also.
Wow! I am new here, and am very glad I found this forum, especially now that I am reading this very interesting thread. So many of you gave lots of very profound input on this subject which made me think a lot.
Now I don't mean to sound like a conceited dick that "knows how to pick up girls," and in any case I don't think anyone really knows "the secret" because every girl is different, so to think there is some 100% foolproof way to pick up girls is ridiculous. But for what it's worth, I am now 30 years old, and I have had quite a few girlfriends. Haven't kept count, but somewhere over 10, I think, and I have a girlfriend now who I've been with for almost 4 years. Who knows, maybe she's "the one." Dunno.
I didn't always have Social Phobia. All through grade school, I was the class clown, in high school I started playing guitar, formed a band, and we toured. So of course, all the drinking, drugs and women were all there right in my face. After high school, the band broke up, but I still was able to meet girls. The truth is I HAD to, because I am somewhat of a sex addict. (Add that to my SP and OCD, and I'm quite the character lol)
I still don't know if I'm actually a "sex addict" or a "love addict," all I know is I feel worthless if I don't have a girlfriend. I am bisexual, or was, to be honest I don't even know anymore since my current monogamous relationship is confusing my brain, and my sexual orientation and addiction has ruined a few of my relationships. Fortunately now, I have a gf who understands my situation (sort of, at least she tries to understand).
I guess my SP started around high school and got worse while I was in college until I started seeing a therapist. Even though I have SP, most of my problems are with strangers and people in groups, but it has not really affected my "ability" (if you want to call it that) to "pick up" (if you want to call it that) women. I think this is because I have always had female friends, even when I was little, and have valued friendships of females more than males, found them easier to talk to, get along with, etc.
So, this is just a stupid rambling post, but I guess my advice if I have any is that when you are talking to women, try not to engage in all-or-nothing thinking like "Oh man, she's talking to me, if I lose her attention she'll find me boring and leave and then I'll never get laid." Try not to think of her as a potential lay, but as a friend. Just make friends with her. Don't compliment her on her looks or ask her out for coffee, just say hi. Ask her how she's doing. Try to connect with her on some level. Don't give her anything to reject! (i.e. "Would you like to go out with me?" etc.)
And be honest. If you're nervous tell her, "I feel nervous." Hell, tell her "I feel nervous and anxious around certain people, especially girls. So don't think I'm a weirdo, I'm just a little uncomfortable sometimes." I think you'd be surprised how many girls would be okay with that, and find it courageous that you said it.
If it is really hard for you to talk with a girl face to face, then why not try myspace of facebook? (I think someone mentioned this already). You can take as long as you want to think of something nice/witty/funny to say, and she can get to know the real you inside. Of course, one day you'll have to meet and you'll be nervous, but likely you'll be so excited to meet her it won't matter!
I feel kind of bad that so many of you guys said that "Girls always go out with assholes/thugs/dickheads while us nice guys get nothing."
I think I am a genuinely nice guy and I have had many girlfriends but I don't think it was because I mistreated them. I treated them like people.
Now here's the thing. And again, I'm not trying to be a dick. But there is such a thing as TOO NICE. I've seen it before, and girls hate that shit.
Examples of being too nice: Complimenting the girl a hundred times, giving her flowers after you've only gone out with her like 3 times, telling her "I miss you" too much, saying "I love you" too soon.
I think good advice would be: don't try to be nice, just be honest. Respect her but don't patronize her with insincere compliments. Don't be selfish, and don't smother her. Just be cool.
I think a lot of girls tend to feel like they can take advantage of a guy who is "too nice" because they know you will always be around and they could get you at the drop of a hat. I'll admit this isn't a nice thing for a girl to do, but some girls are like that. They don't care about your feelings at all, but instead are content to keep you around as a "last resort" kind of guy while callling you her friend.
You are better than this, and you deserve better. You deserve someone who respects you and a girl who treats you this way does not respect you. You have, while being nice and civil, let girls know from the get-go that you are not a sidekick or a backup. You're a person, and you shouldn't be treated like a doormat.
I think it may also be possible that a lot of you guys are looking in the wrong places. It's kind of like those girls who go on Speaker's Corner and ask where all the good men have gone, and you can tell by their clothes and makeup that they have just come from a club.
Out of all my relationships with women only, the worst ones have been women I've met in a bar or at work. The best ones have been women I've met through friends, and online (I met my current gf on myspace).
It is true that some girls do like thugs or assholes, but those girls are usually stupid. Sometimes hot, but always stupid. There are a lot of smart, real girls out there who want smart, real men.
I feel like I have to say something. Having a girlfriend won't solve all of your problems. It won't give you more confidence or alleviate your anxiety. You'll have someone to talk to, but if you unload too much of your bullshit on her, she'll get sick of it and leave. Your problems are still yours, and you still have to solve them on your own, gf or no gf.
I can't believe I wrote this much, I just felt like I should write you guys after reading all 5 pages of this thread and the wonderful thoughts and opinions.
I'll tell you a story then.
My friend has bad OCD, way worse than me. And he is also agoraphobic (means he refuses to leave his house). Back when I was going out with this other girl, we'll call her L, I once brought her over to meet my friend and L brought her friend, A. So A met my friend, and she pretty much fell in love with him. My friend is not good-looking (he is actually pretty overweight), some people tell him he smells (which he does at times, because he doesn't shower that often because he never goes out), he does not dress "well" (though I personally think fashion is stupid, but no one would ever refer to him as a great dresser, he wears plaid shirts and jeans), and at the time he was 26, unemployed, didn't own a car or a driver's license, and was living with his parents. He has little to no social skills, but he is funny when he wants to be, and a great writer. "A" fell in love with him, and just in case you were wondering, "A" was/is gorgeous. Smart, sexy, funny, she is all those things and more.
They spent more and more time together and at one point, my friend told me that A had propositioned him. She said that she would like to be his girlfriend, but under one condition. He has to come outside. "A" liked going places, she was big partier and had lots of friends, and said she couldn't be one of those people who just sits at home all day.
My friend turned her down. "A" was really hurt and doesn't talk to him much anymore (nor I, but that's because I broke up with L who was her best friend, yadda yadda yadda).
Later, my friend told me that he wasn't just afraid of leaving his house, part of the reason he didn't want to be her boyfriend is that he knew she wasn't a virgin and would want to have sex, and he was embarrassed about his body.
I wish the story had a happy ending but it doesn't. He had his chance, and he fucked it up. Now all he has to look forward to is another chance, and hope that he doesn't fuck it up again.
Don't be like my friend. You only live once. I know it's hard, but you can't just give up. I don't mean to sound like Tony Robbins or anything, but if you want it, you can get it. I truly believe that.
Good luck you guys, and sorry for rambling so much. I'm a writer too.
haha jesus christ dude... write a summary next time. But I do agree with the "smalltalk" theory you were talking about. The problem with me is that I DONT do that when I should. I always think its going to turn into something cause I know that this girl proabably thinks I'm cute. I don't know why but it always makes me end up talking about sports (im a sports freak). And thats something that chix really don't give a shit about. I kinda learned that the hard way. Basically with my situation, I geuss the easiest way to put it is that I "Put the Pussy on the pedastool" haha. I only know one girl that I'm basically just close friends with and thats it. I think I need more of those, and after that I should really start rakin the hoes in.
dpr i agree except i dont see an issue with being nice, sure you dont want to go overboard, but you can compliment the other person every so often, but for me the important thing is to just make a friend, thats why dating always seems a bit like rushing into it, especially if yo dont know the person well, leaping into it to early is not the best idea unless your both sure you like each other enough ..
Joined: May 02, 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Rybinsk, Russia
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject:
HideNSeek, I understand you completely, because I had similar situation in the past when I studied at the university. The only difference is that I did't even say anything to the girl, I just avoided her...
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