Equal Rights

[S_Spartan]

The thing is, through feminism women have broken out of many of their stigmas but men's stigmas are still in place. A man still needs to "perform" to earn respect in the world and get a girl.

Things are changing though but the future will not be some equalist's utopia. It will be quite messy.

 

[FriendlyShadow]

While I do agree that there should be fairness in a relationship, I'm trying to point out that most men out there should accept their girlfriend/wives for standing up and maybe even thinking for themselves not always letting men do everything for them in a relationship. I hate the high expectations that women have of thinking that guys will always take care of them in a relationship when they also need to step in and share some of the responsibility as well. I know that some of you on here might be still clinging onto old traditional values and I'm trying my hardest not to start a heated debate here. I think this thread might go even go back to when I said a little similarly about relationships which was a long time ago. All I'm saying is that maybe the saying goes for "Treat others the way you want to be treated" is applied to each and every person. In my honest opinion, I think that it should be allowed if woman/girls want to be courteous and show respect for others.

 

[Bronson99]

The thing is, through feminism women have broken out of many of their stigmas but men's stigmas are still in place. A man still needs to "perform" to earn respect in the world and get a girl.

I agree, bro. A man should be allowed to make a crappy wage or have a crappy car (or just a bus ticket!) and still be desirable.

But when will this change happen? I'm getting quite impatient...

 

[PugofCrydee]

While I do agree that there should be fairness in a relationship, I'm trying to point out that most men out there should accept their girlfriend/wives for standing up and maybe even thinking for themselves not always letting men do everything for them in a relationship. I hate the high expectations that women have of thinking that guys will always take care of them in a relationship when they also need to step in and share some of the responsibility as well. I know that some of you on here might be still clinging onto old traditional values and I'm trying my hardest not to start a heated debate here. I think this thread might go even go back to when I said a little similarly about relationships which was a long time ago. All I'm saying is that maybe the saying goes for "Treat others the way you want to be treated" is applied to each and every person. In my honest opinion, I think that it should be allowed if woman/girls want to be courteous and show respect for others.

I know - and have known - a lot of women who prefer to have the man in a more 'traditional' role. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, if that's what they want.

If the couple (much like my last long term relationship) are happy to have more a 'modern day' type relationship where there is more chivalry taken by the woman, then that's fine too - if that's what they want.

The one thing that we have to accept is everyone is an individual and have slightly different tastes to the next person.
I say if you're not hurting anyone, go for it!

Regardless of your gender.

 

[FriendlyShadow]

I never said it was wrong that men like to behave in a traditional way, but I still do think that women should be given some authority too when it comes to being independent. I don't know if it's just some men can't handle a woman taking care of herself more or vice versa. But everything else you've said, I can agree on.

 

[S_Spartan]

I agree, bro. A man should be allowed to make a crappy wage or have a crappy car (or just a bus ticket!) and still be desirable.

But when will this change happen? I'm getting quite impatient...

It's gonna take a while, my friend...

As I recently overheard a girl say "I have a degree! I simply cannot date a garbage man!"

In America women are rising in social status while men are declining.

If most women partner with men who are higher than they are in social status(or at least on the same level as they are) the pool of available "good men" is gonna keep shrinking.

This will leave women with four choices:

1. remain alone
2. turn to other women for partnership
3. share high status men with other women
4. date "down"

1 and 4 seem the most likely to me.

Of course I'm really generalizing here, there will always be women who aren't as worried about status as others and there will always be women who are attracted to "broken" men no matter what the woman's status is and there will be women who, for whatever reason, never raise their own status.

But I think this trend is pretty clear.

Until society figures out what to do with men in the information age, more and more guys will just keep dropping out as there aren't any clear paths left for men to become high status.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Until society figures out what to do with men in the information age, more and more guys will just keep dropping out as there aren't any clear paths left for men to become high status.

I'm curious what you mean, do you mind to clarify?

 

[S_Spartan]

I'm curious what you mean, do you mind to clarify?

Back when very few women worked a guy could have a factory or mill job and still have status just for having any job. Those days are long gone...

There was also a time when a guy could enter a company without a college degree at a low level and rise up the ladder fairly easily thus gaining status. Those days are mostly gone.

It's common knowledge now that more females are graduating from college than males.

Society has become obsessed with classroom education such that it has been made a prerequisite to obtaining a career that might raise one's status yet they have contoured the classroom format to favor females over males.
In other words, many males aren't designed to sit at a desk and take tests for 15+ years of their lives. Society's answer is medication for "rowdy" boys rather than admitting that some males may learn in a different way or that working with your hands should come at a good competitive wage.

The older men who did achieve status don't seem to be mentoring the young men and helping them gain status but are rather basking in the glory of their riches.

Just a few off the top of my head.

 

[Megaten]

I don't know if it's just some men can't handle a woman taking care of herself more or vice versa. But everything else you've said, I can agree on.

I think its an ego thing mixed with society expectations. Im broke as a joke but my gf seems to keep employment. So she almost always has to buy my meals and pay for dates. Which I personally find humiliating. I feel like Ive somehow failed as a male since I cant provide or bring anything to the table. It doesnt help that whenever she pays people give me a quizzical look like something wrong just happened. But there are at least some like you that dont mind doing those things since we cant all get lucky with money and whatnot.

 

[PugofCrydee]

Men have the 'inbuilt' urge to hunt, gather, protect, provide.

More and more these days men are told they cannot behave the way their instincts tell them too.
It's like telling a woman not to get PMS. Or not to want to have children. For the vast majority that is inbuilt into their DNA.
Imagine being told 'you are wrong to feel the need to have children'.

Just what is it women want from men these days?

 

[FriendlyShadow]

Men have the 'inbuilt' urge to hunt, gather, protect, provide.

More and more these days men are told they cannot behave the way their instincts tell them too.
It's like telling a woman not to get PMS. Or not to want to have children. For the vast majority that is inbuilt into their DNA.
Imagine being told 'you are wrong to feel the need to have children'.

Just what is it women want from men these days?

I'm not saying that men aren't allowed to feel the need to be chivalrous towards woman, but my point is that there needs to be respect and acceptance for woman who to become like like that too. As I keep saying, things are changing now whether most people like it or not and I'm proud that woman's behavior nowadays have been vastly different compared to way back during the old ages. Hey, I know plenty of woman out there that don't ever feel the need/desires to have children or even get married. The people who are making them feel guilty that it's wrong to have children or to get married I'd consider them biased and ignorant. Just like a woman who wants to be courteous or wants to propose to a guy, buy for dinner, and so on I'd say that they are dimwitted not to accept that, even for a guy. It looks like some of you want to stick with old traditions, but whatever you guy's floats your boat...

 

[FriendlyShadow]

/ And if I had a girlfriend who seriously bought me flowers, I'd be damn shocked... but then I'd probably stare at them for an hour and a half out of sheer wonderment of the sentiment.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that statement. :question:

 

[FriendlyShadow]

Gender wars... great.

I don't agree with you saying more women are becoming the dominant ones.
I don't agree with you saying 'most males' are becoming more feminine.

Let me rephrase my original premise. What I meant to say is that I'm glad I live in a time when many roles that were once thought of as gender-specific becoming less so. Of course, there will always be certain functions that will always be identified as male or female oriented, but I'm referring to social behavior such as opening a door for someone or paying for a date. Things like that should be thought of as common courtesies that people can do regardless of their gender, at least in my opinion. I'm aware that many people believe otherwise. I'm just expressing my own opinion.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Back when very few women worked a guy could have a factory or mill job and still have status just for having any job. Those days are long gone...

Society has become obsessed with classroom education such that it has been made a prerequisite to obtaining a career that might raise one's status yet they have contoured the classroom format to favor females over males.

I wonder if we're gonna start throwing rocks at each other if I comment on that

 

[S_Spartan]

I wonder if we're gonna start throwing rocks at each other if I comment on that

Guess that would be OK but it all depends on the size of the rocks!

 

[PugofCrydee]

I'm not saying that men aren't allowed to feel the need to be chivalrous towards woman, but my point is that there needs to be respect and acceptance for woman who to become like like that too. As I keep saying, things are changing now whether most people like it or not and I'm proud that woman's behavior nowadays have been vastly different compared to way back during the old ages. Hey, I know plenty of woman out there that don't ever feel the need/desires to have children or even get married. The people who are making them feel guilty that it's wrong to have children or to get married I'd consider them biased and ignorant. Just like a woman who wants to be courteous or wants to propose to a guy, buy for dinner, and so on I'd say that they are dimwitted not to accept that, even for a guy. It looks like some of you want to stick with old traditions, but whatever you guy's floats your boat...

I think you may be misinterpreting what I write. Or maybe I'm writing in an unclear manner. I agree with your point that Women should feel 'ok' if they want to take the lead in romance etc.
I strongly dislike when others think a certain gender is 'supposed' to act a certain way. I really don't like it when people get pigeon holed, or stereotyped. That includes both genders.

Be yourself.

 

[FriendlyShadow]

Okay, I agree with you, I guess maybe I was misinterpreting your other posts of stating that men are hunters and is built in their DNAs just like women not wanting children that is built in their DNA. I don't know if I misunderstood that there is something wrong with a woman behaving chivalrous, but I'm glad these misconceptions are cleared up now.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Guess that would be OK but it all depends on the size of the rocks!

Ok let's only throw gravel to each other and keep our best rocks for the real enemy

The thing is, through feminism women have broken out of many of their stigmas but men's stigmas are still in place. A man still needs to "perform" to earn respect in the world and get a girl.

I agree, bro. A man should be allowed to make a crappy wage or have a crappy car (or just a bus ticket!) and still be desirable.

But when will this change happen? I'm getting quite impatient...

As you said it yourself, women broke out their stigmas. Only men can break out their own, men being "you"

But I would also like to add, everyone feels like they have to perform, it's the 21th century. But in the end you still do your own choices.

In America women are rising in social status while men are declining.

Since women have been at the bottom of the ladder since ever and they are just starting to rise up, it can hardly be otherwise. Are you saying women are stealing high status jobs that should come back to men?

Until society figures out what to do with men in the information age.

Women figured out what to do with themselves, your turn now. Society is either an abstract entity, which won't figure out shit, or it's the sum of all of us, which, surprise, includes you.

Back when very few women worked a guy could have a factory or mill job and still have status just for having any job. Those days are long gone...

There was also a time when a guy could enter a company without a college degree at a low level and rise up the ladder fairly easily thus gaining status. Those days are mostly gone.

You really think it's because women started working? This world is still ruled by men you know. Women can't get a job without a degree either, it's a gender-unrelated issue.

It's common knowledge now that more females are graduating from college than males.

The reason to this is, unlike men, who can still earn a lot of money without a college degree in "men" jobs like construction, women won't be able to make a living without a degree (unless they feel capable to stand the pressure of trying to make their way in a domain typically reserved to men). Therefor, if a woman don't go to school and don't have a man to support her while she is producing his offspring, she is screwed. Or a gypsy.

I think I may have gone off topic, but I think I really needed to respond to your post.

PEACE

 

[SelfHater]

I have to say this for those of you guys that feel bad about lack of a steady job. 99.9% of my life since I turned 16 I had a steady job. I always played the traditional role of "breadwinner" and I have been married for 20 years now. I hit difficult times in my marriage many times "marriage is work"and perhaps I am going through a midlife crisis. Perhaps I just miss the freedom I had many years ago to call my own shots and let the chips fall.... However...

What I long for is a strong independent woman! I know many of you feel guilty, however I would love to know that my significant other likes me because of me, not because of my income. "Honey lets do this, I want to do this or that" translates to "bring your wallet." Even now, I am going through an unemployment phase after some budget cuts at work. Despite this I still pay 95% of the bills including some of her credit cards. If I whine about this I am not a man. She is really anxious about me finding another job. I am taking my time in hopes of finding another good paying job THAT I LIKE. I found such a job that sounds challenging. If I could pull it off my income would be doubled. The job is something I never did before. Instead of getting support, "honey go for it, I understand, you will do fine and we will get by if it does not work out" I got the opposite of that and was made aware of all the challenges that lie ahead and disapproval. Challenges I was already aware of. In short she wants security and the thought of me getting a different job scares her enough to not to support me. She can only think about what worked in the past but not the possibilities of the future.

So guys, If you are broke, don't have 2 cents to your name, lack nice things but still have a girlfriend.... CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY. She is with you for only one reason, she likes you. A strong woman would say, "yeah I got your back baby, go for it." They are keepers.

 

[Megaten]

Dang, sorry to hear that Selfhater. I never considered that scenario before.