From a Guys prospective.

[Anonymous]

I am an 18 year old shy guy, I can at times be very introverted , or extroverted. Depends on the people i am around and my mood at that time. When I am feeling down I tend to hide this by coming across as very confident with many of my friends (or just plain moody if worst comes to worst). I do this by not disclosing much about myself , and play a "front" as the nice happy guy.

Anyway, this is the point I am trying to make. I am shy because I am *insecure* , like many of you are too as I would also suspect. I have found that much of this shyness is linked to mine or maybe in your case also your *physical apparence*, you feel that you have to look a certain way in order to be accepted by society, or in us guys cases "you feel as though you have to have a certain type of image i.e. a good body" - to be liked by girls (who said guys didnt get it hard). In my case its the body issue , I am very slim, v tall too - so I look like man in a boys body. There have been at times as a result of this , I have thought to myself "you know what I look shit today , let me lock myself at home today" or "I cant wear that top today, looks so skinny on me (I will stay at home as a result as my other tops are in the wash)" and frankly this is the vibe I am getting from other people in my situation. It is very easy to feel sorry for yourself, I know it is - its easy to stay at home all day and think about your depression, and waste your life away. But think about it this way , is it really worth it? Why do we have to be so superficial about ourselfs. I mean it angers me that society has turned into this, where superficiality on a persons image has got so out of control that me and you are being affected by it. Life is too short for this.

Ways to overcome this : you do not need therapy ,psychology,drugs etc as someone else mentioned in the *personal stories* section, its all in your head! Think about it , when you go outside , do you think anyone will care about the way you look or whatever , I mean I am sure everyone and anyone goes out , goes out for a purpose - they are busy , they do not have time to stand there and take the piss out of you....and even if they do, think of it this way, "what makes that person anymore better looking then me?They are clearly ignorant!" However if a particular body part really bugs you , lets say your weight, then do something about it - why dwell on something that you can change? join the gym like I have, and believe me if you do, than people have a lot more respect for you - because they can see that you are making an effort - that you have goals and ambitions in life. A guy I know who lifts 60kg on each arm, has a lot of respect for me.Guys come upto me in the gym , giving me advice , helping me out.

Life is hard, and I know at parties it is especially hard, I find parties hard too at times, with girls especially as I have less in common with them then my guy friends (harder to keep a convo flowing) - but once I have a few beers I become wild ( dont know how alcohol affects you). Sober or not sober , this is one thing you need to start doing, simply just BELIEVE in yourself, carry the "I dont give a fuck attitude" (that way you really wont let things bother you) "so what if they are looking, who cares? thats there problem!" and most importantly as a guy become something that people can envy and repect you for, have goals and ambitions and work towards them, as this way you can at least have pride about yourself and not feel like a waste. Also girls like guys who have some sort of determination in life to achieve something because in *psychological* terms they can provide for them. How many ugly guys have you seen with fit girls - says it all really. Priorities your life, be something then worry about girls, they come and go. Remember that. If your life is just about getting girls, then you should just be a pornstar. - and as you get older i am sure no one would want to settle down with you because all your life you have been a slave to your desires and not financially stable as a result - as all girls want security.

As guys we have it harder then girls by far, not only we have to have good status in terms of career wise , but we have to have the looks - to the point some guys take steroids or like women probably starve themselves if they are overweight. Also socially we have it harder , because we are expected to have tonnes loads of confidence, otherwise girls get nervous around the guy and therefore branded as weird. For this reason, I do not agree with any girl or guy when he/she says that guys have it easy.

Anyway , just remember to be yourself , if they dont like you then fuck them - you cannot expect everyone to like you. Just believe in yourself and I know this sounds selfish but believe me when I say this -concentrate on yourself, as life is what you make it - nobody will make your life, only you can! Survival of the fittest. Period. Use this experience to make you a stronger and much more maturer person. Use it to inspire you in acheiving your goals whatever it may be, like for example if you want to gain weight and be buff, everytime you goto the gym , visuallise how great you will look like once you get there and the rewards that will follow after it. Be optimistic , not pessimistic - never be pessimistic otherwise you will fall into depression and if anyone doubts you in any shape or form use that as an incentive to prove them wrong. AS thats all life is about, proving people wrong! Lifes too short to hate yourself.

Thank you for your time.

 

[wistful_dementia]

Another guys perspective

You are absolutely right. If you are just a shy person then having an "I don't give a fuck attitude about how people think about me" is a good one. Now as far as who has it easier or harder- girls or guys- that is always up to debate. Personally, I think it is harder for guys because women's attraction towards men (or women for that matter) is mainly a mental one. Does physical appearance matter? Of course it does but not to the extent that other factors do. My slightly educated guess on the matter would be that women consider the combination of such things as personality (which unfortunately for us guys includes confidence and assertiveness). What even makes it harder for me (someone who has SAD- not shyness) is that our minds are what makes us who we are, what makes us humans ,what's makes us attractive to women. At least women can rely on their looks to get that first step of meeting someone and guys and women are more tolerant towards shy women. With that being said- women too can come up with a whole litany of why their lives are hard (if not harder than mens). So why does it really matter who has it harder or easier? It's really relative to who the suffering is happening to anyways. All suffering is valid.

But, we all should try to grow and get past our problems and stop making excuses as to 'myself being this way' because of other people. Not that I am not tempted to because their are alot of ignorant, presumptuous, arrogant people, out there who over estimate thier own intelligence (acting out before ever thinking) and who lack any sort of wisdom; they are more dangerous than all of the stupid people of this world combined. I for one am trying to see that despite this fact, that out of the billions of people in this world, there are still strong, openmined (enlightened + broadminded) people who are genuinely nice and don't confuse strength and assertiveness with agressiveness and futile violence. Basically, despite everyone- I am ultimately responsible for my own emotions.
There is one thing that I don't agree with. No offence, but alot of what you say comes off as totally naive. You are speaking from the view point of a person who is shy- who simply can change your view point or 'excercise' and simply get more confidence. While of course doing things to build one's confidence is benificial towards anyone, including SAD sufferers- it isn't always enough alone. If you do your research and educate on SAD you will see that it is not as simple as that. For those who truley have SAD you will come to find out that they are biologically predisposed to thier excessive shyness. Through research it has been show that SAD sufferers have actual problems with things such as serotonin and shutting off the feeling of alertness and adrenaline interpreted through our amygdalas. Now this biological factor is also combined with our nuturing- by family and society. For myself, I came from a very reclusive family. Imagine being very shy from the day that you were born- being uncomfortable in social situations and when meeting new people and basically having this natural inclination reenforced by your family behaviour + being mentally and/or physically abused. Now imagine not having the natural tools such as feeling comfortable around kids and standing back and watching a bunch of kids who go around degrading and abusing people who they consider 'weaker' or not as cool as themselves. It's sad, but alot of their parents openly condone this behaviour- as sort of a coming of age ritual in our western society. I believe this is totally wrong- because developing critical thinking, wisdom, and philosophical reasoning should be the true coming of age ritual. In this day in age what allows us to survive comes from the tools of our minds- not violence.

In anycase- if you tried to be more open minded and experiment with more than one possibility you might come to a more objective truth- some people are more than just shy and Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy- has been proven to work for those who have extreme distortions of thinking. Medication does work as a temporary tool (sadly some very extreme cases always need it). But medication should only be used as a last resort for extreme cases of SAD. In short for most people with shyness- your right- it is simply a case of building one's confidence. With people who have SAD- it is more complicated- but thier is hope- CBT has actually been shown (to some degree) to change the brains chemistry. This is only to a degree, and the degree depends on the effort of changing one's thoughts and emotions- which in turn may depend upon the severity of a persons mental illness.

 

[Anonymous]

Believe in yourself.

Personally, I think it is harder for guys because women's attraction towards men (or women for that matter) is mainly a mental one. Does physical appearance matter? Of course it does but not to the extent that other factors do.

Myabe in your experience, but in my experience this is just not true. Women often judge you on first impressions, this includes physical appearance - especially at social gatherings. If you look shifty to them, then they are likely to ignore you. Ironically, I had this conversation with a girl a few weeks ago, and she was like "If the guy looks a certain way, I will run away from him" - and it is true. Ever wondered why really really good looking guys have it easy? because their looks break the barrier in communicating to a woman, only then it comes down to confidence and personality.

While of course doing things to build one's confidence is benificial towards anyone, including SAD sufferers- it isn't always enough alone. If you do your research and educate on SAD you will see that it is not as simple as that. For those who truley have SAD you will come to find out that they are biologically predisposed to thier excessive shyness. Through research it has been show that SAD sufferers have actual problems with things such as serotonin and shutting off the feeling of alertness and adrenaline interpreted through our amygdalas.

I remember learning about that during my psychology lessons. Biological it is. But I know this may be a very niave thing to say, but my arguement against this case was based on the fact that ironically I know someone that I suspect has the symptoms for SAD. And there is soemthing about her that I just so dislike, (ironically I have read this from other persons on these forums too) is that people do make an effort to be friends with her, yet she makes it harder for herself. It took me, and I am not joking 6-8 months of talking both in real life and MSN, just for her to open up. Before that she came across as very bitchy. Even now, whenever I talk to her, shes like always on about how bad her life is, "how she has no friends", "how she has no social life", "how bad her childhood was". Maybe her life is bad, but I have been through a lot 2, yet I do not constantly self pity myself , and when it comes to socialising I never act that way. I give people a chance - yet from early infant like many others in this forum I did not have the best of adolescense, as the matter of fact I went through one extreme to another during adolesence. Yet I find I handle my condition, if I have any in a different manner. I try not to dwell on things and remain optimistic. Biological it may be, but I know this sounds very offensive, and if I am am being naieve , correct me please - but I feel as though some people probably get diagnosed with the condition and use it as an excuse for all their actions and this leads to self pity. I know people who are dyslexic or have other mental disorders, and many of them technically cannot do things such as advanced maths because of their condition. However the stronger ones I am friends with, have passed maths despite all odds at a certain level, the weeker ones often used their metal condition as an excuse. Where there is a will there is a way. You have to change your viewpoint in life.

Yes I totally agree with you:

For myself, I came from a very reclusive family. Imagine being very shy from the day that you were born- being uncomfortable in social situations and when meeting new people and basically having this natural inclination reenforced by your family behaviour + being mentally and/or physically abused. Now imagine not having the natural tools such as feeling comfortable around kids and standing back and watching a bunch of kids who go around degrading and abusing people who they consider 'weaker' or not as cool as themselves. It's sad, but alot of their parents openly condone this behaviour- as sort of a coming of age ritual in our western society. I believe this is totally wrong- because developing critical thinking, wisdom, and philosophical reasoning should be the true coming of age ritual. In this day in age what allows us to survive comes from the tools of our minds- not violence.

Freud said that we are deeping affected by childhood, and I totally agree with this. I sympathize with those that suffer from this due to their/my childhood, I am still finding it hard to be myself in social environments. I feel that this condition and its' severity can be nurtured due to the conditions of your upbringing externally or internally. However, I do not think that once it has developed in later life, it becomes something you cannot cure. In my case, due to my religious values I have always been socialble to men and not women, on top of that throughout primary school and secondery school - yes I was bullied excessively, and like many of you I was considered a "loner" during primary school and the first few years of secondery school - I was very geeky looking - 115 pounds, big glasses - always regarded as an "ugly duckling", "easy target". On top of that, I also have a speech impendment due to my teeth, as I have a condition called an "open bite", which affects my speech to the point I normally come out very slow in the tone of voice. Which people can take the piss off. On top of that, during adolescensce i have had 3 different operations.

I will not deny it , the above has affected me badly - my confidence that is, it has caused me to bunk days of school, cos i didnt look a certain way, so i will be depressed. Caused me to be nervous about being in an environement where the likely hood is that you will be judged. But now I find that its better off improving youself from the outside (i am workin on getting a big body, wear contact lenses, and take care of my general appearance) - as it just makes you a better person from within. Some people disagree , by branding this as "conforming", but we all conform to society one way or another. Also another thing I haev noticed is that from going to an #Ugly duckling to an handsome dude as some may say - people TREAT you differently. The people that were not my friends during school are now inclined to hang out with me.

The above reasons is why I am the way I am, I concentrate on myself because the way I see it, "yes you do get genuinely nice people out there" but the majority are "fake". People come and go, the only person that wont come and go, is essentially your family and yourself. Out of all my mates, I have only 2 friends that I can trust with my life, as they have been there during my changes in appearance and continue to do so. I get given a hard time now, by some people mainly due to my speech, yeah it hurts but you know what lifes too short, they are ignorant twats and most of the people that do it are insecure themselves because they see you as a threat to girls. Locking yourself in all day just leads to one problem after the other, and eventually you will probably suffer from bipolar depression if your really unlucky. Just be yourself, people will appreciate for who you are, I have a slight speech problem because of my teeth as I cannot pronounce certain phanetics correctly, but I still have a large amount of people who appreciate me for who I am.If you show your weekness, then it will be exploited, and that is a harsh lesson I had to learn recently. If your image causes your problem, simply change it - it will only make you feel more confident about yourself. Anyway thank you for your time again.

 

[Anonymous]

oops I forgot to sign in - wistful_dementia

Personally, I think it is harder for guys because women's attraction towards men (or women for that matter) is mainly a mental one. Does physical appearance matter? Of course it does but not to the extent that other factors do.

"Maybe in your experience, but in my experience this is just not true. Women often judge you on first impressions, this includes physical appearance - especially at social gatherings. If you look shifty (A behaviour that is one only parly descernes from appearance)to them, then they are likely to ignore you. Ironically, I had this conversation with a girl a few weeks ago, and she was like "If the guy looks a certain way, I will run away from him" - and it is true. Ever wondered why really really good looking guys have it easy? because their looks break the barrier in communicating to a woman, only then it comes down to confidence and personality."

I am speaking in general terms about looks. Of course it matters for first impression, but when women find someone attractive they are lookin at the overall package- how the guy carries himself, the way he dresses, his personality. I believe that an average guy who has a great personality can actually appear even more physically attractive towards a woman. Is it easier for a guy who is just a pure hottie to meet women of course it is. I am not arguing about that. But if that guy who may be considered physically attractive by a women starts acting nervous or 'odd' then the woman may think that he is a wierdo and that first physical attraction is meaningless. For a woman who is physically attractive men and women are more tolerant of thier oddness or shyness- maybe because it is not a threat

While of course doing things to build one's confidence is benificial towards anyone, including SAD sufferers- it isn't always enough alone. If you do your research and educate on SAD you will see that it is not as simple as that. For those who truley have SAD you will come to find out that they are biologically predisposed to thier excessive shyness. Through research it has been show that SAD sufferers have actual problems with things such as serotonin and shutting off the feeling of alertness and adrenaline interpreted through our amygdalas.

Biological it may be, but I know this sounds very offensive, and if I am am being naieve , correct me please - but I feel as though some people probably get diagnosed with the condition and use it as an excuse for all their actions and this leads to self pity. I know people who are dyslexic or have other mental disorders, and many of them technically cannot do things such as advanced maths because of their condition. However the stronger ones I am friends with, have passed maths despite all odds at a certain level, the weeker ones often used their metal condition as an excuse. Where there is a will there is a way. You have to change your viewpoint in life.

Of course that happens. But you need to be careful to not to OVERGENERALIZE. Alot of people who overgeneralize someone's behaviour or even a small group of people behaviour tend to paint everyone who has certain characteristics (in this case SAD) to be the same way. I think most people who have matured emotionally realize that they shouldn't use their biological problems as an excuse to not improve upon themselves. But what I am worried about is because most people can't truly relate to this problem they assume that because they are social creatures and they don't suffer from the same problems (despite their difficulties in life) then everyone should simply, buck up and just work harder. Like I agreed- over coming SAD can be done- by teaching oneself to take responsibility for thier emtions- which ironically includes, not overgeneralizing the world and making everyone out to be hostile and a potential social danger. To get over an incorrect way of viewing ourselves in relation with the world, and an incorrect way of viewing our ownselves independently of the world, will help but it is much more difficult for a SAD sufferer rather than a typical shy person.

It is interesting that you brought up the bitchy girl. Because I remember my only friend in secondary school going with me to the mall once (which was a painful experience in itself) and he ran across a friend and her friend's friend. I worked up the nerve to say hi after Ben introduced me to 'the friend of a friend'. She just stood their very pissed off and bitchy looking. I was embarrassed and thought of course it was because of me 'being an idiotic dork' and all. I brought up the bitchy friend of a friend later to Ben later, telling him what a bitch she was. He said "she is just very shy like you" she is a very nice person once you get to know her. I realize it now- but she had SAD. When a person with SAD is feeling very tense, they can look mean, which they really aren't. We are just feeling very tense and defensive. We may have a scowl, not because we are angry, but because we are unconciously building up our defenses, we will be very quiet- not because we are rude, but because our brains are in fight or flight mood, and we aren't the best conversationalist at the moment- we may even unconciously have our fists clutch- another defensive, not agressive posture.

You are right in most of what you say- it just seems to be over simplified. I assure you that if you truly had SAD you could relate you would realize this: SAD is partly biological (it is a genetic predisposition towards excessive social anxiousness) it is also a phobia- most of we should buck up and have confidence and thought our thoughts toward society and our thoughts when in certain social situations (if not all) are irrational, but we keep behaving in an irrational manner dispite this. SAD = social, familial, + biological influences. Hence, it is much easier for someone who just has had a hard life to get confidence as opposed to someone with SAD to get better on self confidence alone. It takes alot for a SAD sufferer to get to that point in anycase.

I will agree that we SAD must change our way of thinking and it is possible for most SAD people to get better after they have learned to think rationally and forced themselves to face their fears, as well as attempting to see thing in a more positive light (in a rationaly manner, of course not everything is rosey). Confidence builders help.

In anycase I admire that socially you have been through alot and managed to move past it... that is a great thing. To let you know- I have never considered my self as physically unattractive- at this point in my life I don't consider myself the knockout that I use to be- but to me that is irrelavant- I need to work on my social skills + conversational skills now.
Even if I was stunning how would I MAINTIAN a relationship or after initial attraction is established how can I make the girl want more without feeling at ease with conversating? If physical attraction works for you and boost your confidence and esteem to the point that you find it easy to socialize then great! but my irrational thinking comes from how I worry about other people judging my personality, including the words I say. I am working on my changing my thoughts and behaviour and am making progress- it is happening- not as quickly as I would like- but I will beat this thing- at the very least I will make a small group of close friends and will no longer be afraid to speak at ease and casually to strangers and in public. This is my promise to myself.


PS, freud is often examined in psychology classes and is considered interesting to say the least, but most modern psychologist don't give much credibility to his theories. Most modern psychologist try to look at human behaviour in a more scientific manner and observe human behaviour from multiple perspectives: biological (neuropsychology), social (social psychology) , evolutionary (evolutionary psychology), and the our thought processes (cognitive behavioural psychology).

Take care...

 

[Anonymous]

only if people were that complicated.. people are very simple minded.. they only care about themselves. They thieve, murder and hurt each other. i think the sane people should desert themselves from society

 

[wistful_dementia]

Re: oops I forgot to sign in - wistful_dementia

Biological it may be, but I know this sounds very offensive, and if I am am being naieve , correct me please - but I feel as though some people probably get diagnosed with the condition and use it as an excuse for all their actions and this leads to self pity. I know people who are dyslexic or have other mental disorders, and many of them technically cannot do things such as advanced maths because of their condition. However the stronger ones I am friends with, have passed maths despite all odds at a certain level, the weeker ones often used their metal condition as an excuse. Where there is a will there is a way. You have to change your viewpoint in life.

oops-hehe- sorry, I really need to learn how to use the quote tool. The above message was originally quoted from the guest, life's too short...I meant to quote it in my prior message, so... please don't take it out of context... I really, really don't have multiple personalities

and as far as the other guest- I'm sorry, what exactly are you talking about and whose posting are you responding to?

 

[wistful_dementia]

Derf... another correction (it's been a long day :

"You are right in most of what you say- it just seems to be over simplified. I assure you that if you truly had SAD you could relate you would realize this: SAD is partly biological (it is a genetic predisposition towards excessive social anxiousness)it is also a phobia- most of we should buck up and have confidence and thought our thoughts toward society and our thoughts when in certain social situations (if not all) are irrational, but we keep behaving in an irrational manner dispite this. SAD = social, familial, + biological influences. Hence, it is much easier for someone who just has had a hard life to get confidence as opposed to someone with SAD to get better on self confidence alone. It takes alot for a SAD sufferer to get to that point in anycase"

correction: I assure you that if you had SAD then you could relate, and you MIGHT realize this: ....... most of US can not just simply buck up and have confidence (confidence can be accomplished but it is not as easy as one may think).... also we realize that our thoughts are irrational and our behaviour towards people are irrational(as do most people with phobias and OCD do)....