Sinar_Matahari
Well-known member
You mean to say that random people insult you when you go out? Are these people you know or total strangers? What kind of things to these people say and does it happen often?
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Why do so many people place us below them?
- Thread starter JamesSmith
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You mean to say that random people insult you when you go out? Are these people you know or total strangers? What kind of things to these people say and does it happen often?
Sinar_Matahari
Well-known member
Do you actually believe yourself to be worthless? If everyone were to believe that you are worthless, does it make it an actual fact? Belief and fact are one and the same? So does this mean that you have no choice but to be worthless because you are treated as such?
You're telling me that you've become a collective scapegoat, have been ostraciszed, ganged up on and condemned for being yourself, right? Yourself being what? Socially anxious? Shy?
A lot of the way people treat you has to do with how you carry yourself, and how you feel about yourself. How you feel about yourself reflects on how you carry yourself. The less you give other's opinions (of you) power, the more respect you get. If you allow others to have so much power over you then you will not get any respect. It's not simply about people hating you because you're shy or anxious. I've had people tell me that I seem shy or reserved, but that didn't make them treat me like a piece of crap. If a person has no respect for themselves then they cannot expect others to have any respect for them. Love, acceptance and respect starts within you not outside. Sure, not everyone will love, accept or respect you, but once you have those things, those people won't matter. You won't give them any power over you.
Cynic
Well-known member
When so many different people give off the same message, it must be true, no?
Practically every group or society needs someone at the bottom (as much as they need someone at the top, they need a middle, and a bottom) and will gang up on someone. That's just human nature.
krs2snow
Well-known member
I don't think u're extremely different. I think u may be in a different place than many posters on this site though. Most pple posting are in their teens to early 20's and some are late 20's to 30 something. You probably have insight into what many of the posters are experiencing. Maybe through ur exceptance of ur situation u can offer some much needed, life-based advice to pple. U may have a more difficult time relating to pple here simply due to the fact that most posters are in a different age group but that doesn't mean u don't belong. Maybe u just belong in a differnt way than what u were expecting. For example, I'm glad to hear that at age 50, u are'nt necessarily looking to change. That gives me a sense of relief, to think one day I will be comfortable enough in my own skin- even though I may still want to connect w/pple and I may still have some insecurities- I will be O.K.
Damaged
Well-known member
I haven't really experienced people thinking im below them apart from my ex, he made it pretty damn clear what he thought of me and that i was useless and not as good as anyone else.
So now some days when i have bad days i really do see myself at the bottom of everyone, and i do feel completely out of my depth to anyone i form a connection with, its horrible.
So now some days when i have bad days i really do see myself at the bottom of everyone, and i do feel completely out of my depth to anyone i form a connection with, its horrible.
Shin273
Member
Implicit here is the fact that everyone thinks they need to "contribute" to society. For me, I make it about myself. What makes ME happy? We are all ultimately given one life to live, I say make it the best life you can make it. Not to say that we don't have our problems, but I'd rather make myself as happy as can be than do everything in my power to "contribute" to society. The reason I fight my SA is that I feel that I will be happier being able to meet people. It's not about society at all. If I was happy being a loner all of my life, I would screw trying to get rid of my SA, and most certainly screw the society that clearly does not understand me. Also, you are NEVER below anybody, no matter how many times you hear it. So what if they have the ability to be outgoing? Everyone has different traits and quirks, yours is that you're SA. Anybody picking on you is just their way of hiding their own insecurities by taking it out on an easier target. Ultimately, they are the jerks that will end up with shallow relationship and marital problems when they hit their late 30s and 40s.
It's not that you're different for not wanting to change, it's that you have what many of us are looking for: the ability to be comfortable with ourselves. We can all relate to each other well because of our SA, it gives us something to ponder and "conquer" collectively. It seems you've already conquered your SA not by changing it, but by accepting it. The way I see it, there are two ways out of this dilemma, changing your inherent SA or accepting it and becoming comfortable with it.
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Sinar_Matahari
Well-known member
This may or may not be the case for you...when I was convinced that others were out to persecute and reject me, I saw hostility and rejection in every single face that gazed upon me. Looking back, bullying was far more traumatic than I realized at the time. A person looking at me with a neutral or serious facial expression could upset me for the rest of the day. Not to mention I would react with hostility which didn't really help my case. I was determined to never let anyone get away with hurting me in any way and that's why I was so defensive and hostile. I would react with hostility to people who smiled kindly at me because I perceived them as mocking me. In the end, I got what I was afraid of, what I was expecting. I got hostility, mockery and rejection. This further validated my fears and my insecurities until I thought there was nothing about me worth loving or liking and it was really lonely. My prison was one of my own making. I know that now.
It didn't help that I got attention for my looks. That only served to validate my delusions. They're staring at me because they're trying to find something to hate about me. They hate me so they want to hurt me. What have I done to them to deserve this? There must be something wrong with me. Wherever I go, people will hate and reject me.
There is truth to this, unfortunately. But what makes you think that you are one of the people being singled out for persecution?
I'm not telling you this to argue with you or because I want to be right and you to be wrong. I just hope that you will open your mind allow yourself to see things from a more objective perspective. That doesn't have to be my perspective. There are different ways you can look at this. Maybe you can find an objective perspective that will make sense and work for you. Maybe it can bring you some peace.
JamesSmith
Well-known member
Lately, since i have no friends, it's all random strangers tossing out the insults. It's so insane because of the fact that I don't even go out very much, but in that short amount of time, someone has to point out my shyness in a degrading way. When I did have friends, at first they were very nice, then they slowly got really bad, calling me a p----, b---- and loser. After about a year and a half, I had just had enough of it and left and haven't been back with friends for 5 years.
JamesSmith
Well-known member
I see your viewpoint here. Live life for self-satisfaction, and that's what most people do. I agree that we should do what makes us happy, but I'm not happy right now, so what I'm doing isn't working. Let me also say that i'm not that depressed, I'm kind of just alive and living neutrally without happiness and depressed occasionally. I also don't think we should worry about contributing to society, but if you think about it, my life is worth less than someone who has friends, is working a job that serves people, has a wife/husband, has kids and is a law-abiding citizen who always does their best to respect people. Those people's lives are worth more than mine, that is the argument I was trying to make when I was saying I'm lower than many people in society, because I am.
As for the insulting people being jerks that will end up with marital problems, that could be true for many of them, but that doesn't help me much. It's like you just preached, it's my life that matters most to me, not theirs.
Cynic
Well-known member
Did bullying create or perpetuate your feelings of persecution?
Welcome to the everyday life of Cynic. :
:They have to target someone, and my sub-standard social skills, as well as the fact that the authorities wrote me off in childhood will always mark me out as a target.
Kamen
Well-known member
Are you sure it's people who place you below them or it's you who place yourself below others? Social anxiety is just about that, it is related to low self-esteem and hence to insecurity and distrust in yourself. You are so concerned about signs of danger and judging that you find even the slightest possibilities exciting and take them for what you are looking for. They work as validation documents (even though most of them are false!) and re-enforce your beliefs, so you end up in a storm of emotions, and when everything is so noisy and rapid-moving, it's hard to adequately perceive what is really going on. Looking peacefully in yourself and realizing that you're the stormmaker may seem hard and unbelievable, but is important. It's a sign that you are not weak, but quite the opposite - you are rather powerful and not helpless. Then there is no reason to be afraid and scared. From then on you can focus your powers on something more constructive for you. Making mistakes and failing is part of the process of utilizing our powers, part of the ever-going process of learning and exploring (including ourselves); it's growing. We constantly play and experiment with things just as we played with toys when we were children, and just as everyone else plays. We simply play with bigger and bigger toys, that's all. Remember these times from your childhood, bring the joy and curiosity back. Look at the animals and at other people - all of them fail. You cannot fail only if you do things which you know everything about and do exactly and only them in exactly the same way. "Those who don't fail had never tried anything new". But since to a baby everything is something new which should be explored, the only apparent way to not fail is to not touch or try anything at all. That is death, for life is not about that, and it would mean failure with life - a wasted existence. So don't feel bad about yourself. Failure is not a reason to be humiliated or to humiliate someone. It's like accusing and humiliating scientists for exploring new horizons or teenagers for being teenagers. It's like humiliating someone for being alive. Those who are blind for this are certainly not better than you... by choice.
Don't worry. You are good when you fail.
Don't worry. You are good when you fail.
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Sinar_Matahari
Well-known member
Perpetuated. Worsened.
Welcome to the everyday life of Cynic. :
Not a great way to live, I'd say.
The authorities wrote you off in childhood?
JamesSmith
Well-known member
I should have known someone would bring up the whole "your self-esteem is low, and that is your problem." Believe it or not, my self-esteem isn't low. If I had such low self-esteem then I wouldn't be able to give myself compliments and believe that I'm a good person because I really do believe I'm a good person. I mean well. I think I'm a very nice guy actually, and when I do open up to people, I think I have a likable personality. I know that because I've managed to make friends that there is obviously some attribute(s) of mine that they liked being around. As you can see, my self-esteem is not low.
I see you like to talk about how failure builds character a lot. Yes, failure can build character, but what if I don't want to go out and fail because I don't like being around people? Hey, I'm all for trying again and again, but you don't want to keep banging your head against a wall when that wall isn't breaking, which in my case is my problem. I spent years trying to hang out with friends and socialize, and my problems went from bad to worse. If I do what you say, I would be torturing myself until the day I die trying and trying and hating it. My problem isn't not trying, it's not liking being with people. It's not a matter of putting myself out there, it's a matter of hating the feeling when I'm just....out there. It's boring, people are all talking around me with this ongoing, never-ending babble about nothing important. And then, on top of that I feel bad when I'm there. So boredom and anxiety, it defeats the whole purpose of enjoying time with your friends....I don't enjoy the time with them, I don't have fun. There's no self-esteem involved when you just don't like something. If you don't like eating an apple, do you tell yourself you have low self-esteem? No, you just don't like apples.
JamesSmith
Well-known member
Cynic, I don't think people are looking for people to put at the bottom of the social world, I think we make them uncomfortable with our shyness, and the natural reaction for many people is to try to make us feel uncomfortable and/or try to make themselves feel better. Even outgoing people are so insecure that they need to put someone down to make themselves feel better. It's kind of like we are starting to hit them unintentionally, so they feel the need to hit back. Many outgoing people take it personally when we don't give them attention they are used to getting from "normal" people, so that ticks them off too. They weren't planning on attacking us verbally or even sometimes physically, it's a natural reaction.
Cynic
Well-known member
Pretty much, yes.
Kamen, plenty of people walk into new things and do everything flawlessly. Also plenty of people are allowed to screw some things up, because they're fine at plenty of other things.
Kamen
Well-known member
JamesSmith, I see and can relate. I've been there and replies like this are not surprising. I brought up a point to all the forumers that is good to think about. In the following lines, when I say "you", I don't necessarily mean you in particular.
Low self-esteem and fear of failure are strongly related to social phobia / social anxiety, believe it or not. And it isn't about who likes what to talk about. Being able to make conscious compliments to yourself and believing (or pretending to believe in front of yourself) that you are good doesn't cut it - it doesn't mean that you don't have deeply rooted self-esteem issues not as obvious as you might expect, when it comes to other people. Just as sea isn't composed only of the surface one travels on and there are lots of underwater things which a ship captain might has never seen, no matter how good and experienced he is, so people have sub-consciousness that may surprise them. It's psychotherapists job to assist them in "digging" it, finding out what's there, understanding it and shaping it / coping with it. Some people explore this alone, others don't.
"Just don't like it" just doesn't cut it, since replies like that are shaded by one's thinking patterns and learned behavioral style due to SAD, which is the fundamental cause of the "not enjoying it" effect. People who don't need social interaction are those who have Schizoid Personality Disorder, though it's questionable if this is really true or they secretly want closeness. Even the most introverted person needs occasional contacts with a few close friends... and enjoys them.
Finally, no matter how unbelievable it may seem, I should mention that there are people who simply don't want to get rid of their anxiety issues, even though they wouldn't admit it... and many of them don't even realize it. In psychology, this is the so-called secondary profit. These people may try psychotherapy, but when they are challenged by the therapist and are just about to completely recover, they quit therapy and never come back, but continue playing the victim.
Low self-esteem and fear of failure are strongly related to social phobia / social anxiety, believe it or not. And it isn't about who likes what to talk about. Being able to make conscious compliments to yourself and believing (or pretending to believe in front of yourself) that you are good doesn't cut it - it doesn't mean that you don't have deeply rooted self-esteem issues not as obvious as you might expect, when it comes to other people. Just as sea isn't composed only of the surface one travels on and there are lots of underwater things which a ship captain might has never seen, no matter how good and experienced he is, so people have sub-consciousness that may surprise them. It's psychotherapists job to assist them in "digging" it, finding out what's there, understanding it and shaping it / coping with it. Some people explore this alone, others don't.
And when you just don't like apples, do you get overwhelmed by anxiety? Do you get sweeting, the fight-or-flight response? No. Dislike and fear are not the same thing. If you just don't like hanging out and tend to prefer quiet, solitary activities, you are simply an introvert (and there are various degrees of introversion, as you may know). However, introversion doesn't mean SAD, even though some correlation between general anxiety and introversion has been observed. We may speculate and examine various explanations why this is so, but it's a whole another topic. The important thing is that Introversion and Social Anxiety Disorder are not the same thing (and introverts are fine the way they are). Also, the former doesn't imply the latter. If you are anxious around people, feel bad, have social-related fears that strongly affect you and make you shape your life around them, it's SAD. Extraverts may have SAD, too. So no, SAD isn't about like and dislike.
"Just don't like it" just doesn't cut it, since replies like that are shaded by one's thinking patterns and learned behavioral style due to SAD, which is the fundamental cause of the "not enjoying it" effect. People who don't need social interaction are those who have Schizoid Personality Disorder, though it's questionable if this is really true or they secretly want closeness. Even the most introverted person needs occasional contacts with a few close friends... and enjoys them.
Finally, no matter how unbelievable it may seem, I should mention that there are people who simply don't want to get rid of their anxiety issues, even though they wouldn't admit it... and many of them don't even realize it. In psychology, this is the so-called secondary profit. These people may try psychotherapy, but when they are challenged by the therapist and are just about to completely recover, they quit therapy and never come back, but continue playing the victim.
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SilentBird
Well-known member
Kamen, I found your post very thought-provoking.
Kamen
Well-known member
Nobody said that you can never succeed from the first time when walking into new things. It's far harder to find people who do it all the time, not to mention that it depends on one's perception and how closer one looks at that. I'd say there are no such people. And then one may argue on failure or success by taking another view based on levels or "dimensions" of success.
The language nuances that you used are interesting - "they are allowed". They should be allowed first and only if they are good at plenty of other things? Who's the holy master that decides this? And aren't you good at some things?
JamesSmith
Well-known member
Kamen I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me what I like and dislike. You aren't me, and you don't know my exact thoughts and feelings. I don't know what you are thinking and feeling, so I don't know what you like and dislike, and I don't claim to know what you like and dislike. Yes, humans are social creatures and we all are supposed to socialize with others and are designed to enjoy it. Maybe your right, maybe I do have self-esteem issues, but whatever it is, you can't tell me that because I'm a human I enjoy human socializing because in many cases, I don't enjoy it. Yes I can get afraid to speak and am afraid of embarrassed in social situations. Heck, anxiety is at it's height when I'm around people and I'm sure fear is the reason I avoid social situations now. What this boils down to is that of course your right and your telling me something I already know: I'm afraid. What I'm saying is that I'm afraid and I don't like talking people. Call them two separate things, give me all that psychology talk, I don't care. But you can't deny that I have anxiety and because of the anxiety, I don't like being around people. It's possible for a human to not enjoy being around people when they have social anxiety. I've experienced this hundreds of times. Don't tell me what I enjoy and don't enjoy, you don't know me.