Do you agree??

KiaKaha

KiaKaha

Banned
OK - here is what I think.

Do nice guys finish last?
Firstly - it all depends on how you define nice guy. Is that someone that cares about a womans feelings and is considerate? Yeah - sure that is pretty nice. Someone who is protective, loyal, loving and supportive? Sure - that's pretty nice too. How about someone that is amiable, easygoing and friendly - Yep that is pretty nice.

A 'nice guy' (if we are going to play the semantics game) is NOT someone needy, passive aggressive, clingy, constantly insecure, controlling under the guise of being protective, a pushover, a doormat or constantly placing others needs before their own. That is NOT a nice guy - and some guys think that it is.

Now I think - that women *do* want men to treat them well, however I think that there is an underlying biological need that occasionally overrides this judgement....careful now kia.....careful....easy does it....
There is something innate within the female psyche that wants security first and foremost. There is from my own observations that many females want a man that is confident and assertive - subconsciously. There is a discrepancy here. Rather than choosing a man who is more considerate they will often go for a man who has these strengths (confidence and assertive) but who are less considerate.

It's a balancing act you see. Most men, I think - realize this. They KNOW that women dig confidence. So for fear of coming across as 'weak' or submissive or anything like that - they will over compensate - and act cocky and overconfident - and girls lap it up - every time. It is too much of arisk to go for a nice guy because he will not offer the same amount of security. Being friendly and easygoing is pleasant - but its-just-not-enough.

It is interesting to note that being slightly arrogant and cocky, (and by rite less considerate) appears to be more attractive than a guy who is a bit more modest and a tad insecure - if it was a spectrum - the mildly jerkiyish guy wins. Not the one who lacks a bit of confidence - but is generally just a decent dude...

I think wikipedia says it far more clearly than I could ever hope to:

Part of this debate includes speculation about hypocrisy among women in the dating world: that women may say they want a nice guy but won't date him or have sex with him, and rather subconsciously prefer men who are more confident and assertive but less considerate.
Click to expand...

Why do I come to these conclusions myself?

One: Because I am notoriously bad with women. I have dated hundreds of girls, and I only want one. I have picked up common traits made observations and noted behaviours. It isn't a bad thing - its called experience.

Two: I have a number of female friends - and they themselves tell me they like guys who are over confident, assertive and not shy (and shyness is unfortunately the epitome if insecurity, which why I also think that society seems to a little more forgiving to females who are shy than to men)

Three: I can think of *so* many times, so, so , so SO many examples of men who treat women like absolute and utter dirt. Yet these men have this - this power of them - it's quite remarkable. It truly is. I am so bewildered by this observation I can't quite believe it. Constant controlling, emotional, verbal and physical abuse - yet they stay. This is most frustrating.

There is something that I have noticed about females in general - and I think it might be due to social conditioning, but especially on dating - is that society seems to offer females a sense of entitlement. Most of the power in respect to dating is given to the female - they can afford to be choosy, because we know that men, tend to be more desperate than women - just look at this forum and the countless posts about how guys cant get a girlfriend. It's everywhere - by this sheer fact alone - shows the power imbalance - I am sure I can think of more examples though.

So that is my hypothesis - do I hate women? No. Do I like women - very much so. Do I treat them badly? no. Do I have a healthy attitude to females and dating. Yes. Do I resent them? No - do I think girls make stupid decisions sometimes....YES.

And for the record - I think men make just as many stupid decisions, are superficial, cheat, treat women like crap and stereotype and all other manner of irritating behaviours - I completely acknowledge that - but being a man myself I think of things from a male perspective - and I am also answering this question.

Well - may as well post it.... throw myself to the lions den....
 
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MikeyC

MikeyC

Well-known member
^ You have thought this through, Kia. I can't disagree about a balancing act between being nice and being assertive. I think most people in their right minds would like this for themselves, and for others.

But again, I am a total pushover sometimes and I still had many interested girls. While I'm sure girls want security and protection - as men do - there's got to be other traits involved, and with 3 billion women around the world, not all can think the same.

I get what you're saying, though. Plus you have years of experience over me in the dating world, heh.
 
JuiceB

JuiceB

Well-known member
^You need to write articles for magazines or publish your own journal. I wholeheartedly agree with this mans analysis.
@Kia
 
Opaline

Opaline

1
Kia, you should come to IRC and participate in our debates!




...then again, that may be a bad idea. If it doesn't corrupt you it may scar you for life. Or both :p


Sorry, way off topic.
 
dottie

dottie

Well-known member
Beatrice said:
*tiptoes back into thread*

I think it will be the same for me. I'm not a man so it has different implications for me, but it's still important and being a doormat or "too nice" is not good for a woman either. I know the feeling of being taken advantage of because of my "niceness" all too well.
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females are especially conditioned to be overly "nice." stereotypical traits of femininity (things i hugely embraced as part of my identity) become a major hindrance after a certain age.

i recommend this book for all females on this website- young and old, alike: nice girls don't get the corner office... it brought attention things that i do that i was unaware of. it's generally about the workforce but it is practical and should be applied to all aspects of life.
 
KiaKaha

KiaKaha

Banned
The interesting thing about women being 'nice' to men - is that it can sometimes be misinterpreted as flirtation or a come on. Sometimes a woman is just friendly - life experience of constantly having unwanted attention and having to explain that they are just want to be nice - leaves them jaded and bitter....and perhaps not so nice.

There are lots of gender inequalities - both ways. Women should be paid the same amount as a man - same work, same pay.
On average - globally - females get paid less. I know they do in my country.
 
BlueDays

BlueDays

1
BlackPuma said:
One can be nice AND assertive.
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^So very true!
I think to achieve this it would take an enormous amount of social experience and skill, to know when and how much assertiveness to apply in each different circumstance etc. But it is a great goal to work towards.:)
 
MikeyC

MikeyC

Well-known member
KiaKaha said:
The interesting thing about women being 'nice' to men - is that it can sometimes be misinterpreted as flirtation or a come on. Sometimes a woman is just friendly - life experience of constantly having unwanted attention and having to explain that they are just want to be nice - leaves them jaded and bitter....and perhaps not so nice.
Click to expand...
Another interesting point. There's a myriad of reasons behind a woman's (and a man's) actions.
 
Chess

Chess

Well-known member
I agree with this video, but I also think it's a term that's often applied to the self by terrible people to assuage their ego and that skews things.

Going over my mental list of nice guys I know who struggled with dating, I'm noticing that only a handful of them are actually decent people. The rest of them I've seen do things like sell out their friends, laugh at people getting hurt when online trolling turns to outright cyber bullying, etc, and they still think women are passing them up because they're too "nice" or "not alpha."

All I can say is, whatever the reason I hope girls keep doing it for their own well-being...

I think it's very rare for a guy with a good heart to have too much trouble meeting dates unless they have a condition such as social anxiety that's extreme enough to keep them from meeting or talking to many women. The one I'm thinking of has major issues with being touched and tends to completely freeze up around girls he likes.
 
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BlackPuma

BlackPuma

1
coyote said:
the opposite truth is that someone can be UNassertive and still be a jerk

just because they're quiet and shy doesn't automatically make someone nice
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I would definitely agree with that. There's no real black or white rule to determine whether someone is nice, neutral or a jerk.

Hell, I've even met nice jerks. Just like with every other aspect about a person, there's no black or white category. Rather, there's a full colour palette, fluctuating and overlapping endlessly, all determining the outcome of this unique person. Like a balance scale of attributes/qualities all weighing in.. no pun intended.

People aren't really ''nice'' or ''jerks'', that's just the simple categories we refer to because it's far too difficult to take every aspect of a person into account, every time you meet them. But in reality; they're not black or white, jerks or nice, assertive or unassertive. They're just pretty little rainbows showing off their most dominant colours and attributes. And even THOSE fluctuate. A ''jerk'' can be nice, and someone who's ''nice'' can be a jerk. :3

So that's my conclusion. People are Skittles.
 
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1BlackSheep

1BlackSheep

Well-known member
BlackPuma said:
But in reality; they're not black or white, jerks or nice, assertive or unassertive. They're just pretty little rainbows showing off their most dominant colours and attributes. And even THOSE fluctuate. A ''jerk'' can be nice, and someone who's ''nice'' can be a jerk. :3

So that's my conclusion. People are Skittles.
Click to expand...
Good way to describe it! People *are* Skittles! :)
 
KiaKaha

KiaKaha

Banned
coyote said:
the opposite truth is that someone can be UNassertive and still be a jerk

just because they're quiet and shy doesn't automatically make someone nice
Click to expand...

That is called being passive aggressive. Hard to identify. Often the damage has already been done before you realize what it is that you have experienced. Very sneaky... encountered it many times myself.

It's a balance you see. Unfortunately I think that traits that are claimed to be admired and found attractive are either overshadowed by what people perceive to be attractive (such as being confident/assertive and all that jazz)

- it's too difficult to tell the difference. Which is why genuinely good quality guys often get overlooked and the guys that cocky arrogant jerky types win.

While people are not just one or the other - there *are* still traits and attributes that make up what is considered to be being nice and being a jerk. I often wonder about the limits of what is deemed acceptable behavior and the amount of claimed tolerance before someone can finally label someone as a 'jerk'
I mean....there are bad people out there right? Selfish, manipulating, ignorant, aggressive. cocky, abrasive, inconsiderate, controlling behaviours.... whether assertive/unassertive/shy/loud - I mean, these character traits are still valid - I am sure.
 
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