God is not with us.

[EmptyWords]

Let me tell you about myself first and foremost. I went to a private school for the first 12 years of my life. I went from preschool through 6th grade.

I used to be the kid who tried to do everything right and live by the word of god. I never cussed, i listened to country music for god sake. I had goals I had motivation. I was going to go somewhere, I was going to be something.

Now, here I am going into 12th grade. I have no motivation I've seen all my friends fall into drug use and I followed them for many months. Marijuana was the drug of choice. I quit, they still do it to this day.

I listen to metal/black metal right now. I don't care about ANYBODY but me, my friends and my family. Thats it. In these last 5 to 6 years in my life I have fallen from grace if you will. I have found that there is no god. Judging by the shithole we call earth, if there is a god it would be Satan. Thousands of people die every day and for what? nothing. Thousands of starving african children die every day. The entire country is infested with aids and other diseases.

How can you still say god exists and loves you. It's obviously not true. The middle east is for the most part a war zone where many have died for lost causes. There will not be peace in any of our life times. Peace in the middle east is a lost cause.

For the religious types that life there lives and base their morals on a false leap of faith. Don't worry about hell for you may very well be in hell and simply not realize it.

 

[Nadine333]

I think this is a job for Jesus christs child, so I will pop you back at the top

 

[Farrizle]

lol,the common misconception of 99% of people who try 2 justify their disbelief in God...suffering,death,poverty,war...the list goes on.God is a kid with an ant farm,he watches,he doesn't directly control our lives.If God was real in the sense that there was no suffering etc. and the world was perfect,then there would be no such thing as free will.think of it like this,some1 hurts you severley,u get pissed off & want 2 get back at them.you think it's right at the time,& so u do it.if God prevented it,would that be your will or His?it would be His,and therefore you'd have no choice in the matter,no free will to an extent.not the best example but all i could come up with right now.another thing, whether u r religious or not, by not putting your faith in God,you may lose out in the after life, but what have you to lose by putting in your faith in God?at the end of life,if their is nothing,at least you can say (if that's possible from the grave ) that you lived your life as a cool person

oh and 1 more thing,not that it justifies what goes on in this crazy world of ours, but without out those miserable rainy days....would u appreciate the sunshine?without suffering would u truely appreciate bliss?u tell me...

 

[lawyerguy]

Hi everyone,

I would like to preface my statements by saying that I am not an enemy of religion and I respect those of us human beings who profess to believe in an almighty power. However I would like to make a few points on the concept of free will.

Imagine, if you will, a person coming up to you and putting a gun to your head. The person says.."Play checkers or else I"ll put a bullet to your head." Being a human being who values his freedom you protest. You tell him.."its wrong for you to make me play this game of checkers..you are taking away my free will... the guy with the gun stops to think about what you said and responds "I'm not taking away your free will you are free to move the pieces on the checker board anyway you want.."...and you reply "That's not the point. I don't have the free will to decide whether or not I want to play this game of checkers in the first place. So any movements I make on the checker board are the result of coercion..not free will"

Basically this analogy applies to any religious philosphy that incorporates sin, hell, and punishment within its theology. God is making us play this game of life. We had no say as to whether or not we wanted to be born. We were simply forced to live. Any decisions we make in this life are therefore akin to moving pieces on the checkerboard. We have free will only in the context of the choices God gives us just as the man with the gun only grants us free will within the context of the choices he chooses for us. We do not have the free will to opt out of the game.

The main point is..one cannot truly be said to make a decision out of your own free will at the point of a gun. Similarly one cannot truly be said to make a decision out of your own free will at the threat of damnation. The god of the sin and damnation does not grant us true free will.

 

[allanboy]

Be selfish. Thinking about people across the world and their problems will only keep you thinking, dragging you down, questioning the world around you. Follow your life, thank for not being born with some mental problem, being blind, or living in some country way worse then yours. Thank for your family and friends, for the mind you were born with, no matter how bad you think they are. Everybody got problems, it´s the way people react to them that make us special.

my 2 cents, also try reading some God quotes, from whatever quote site you got.

 

[lawyerguy]

A second point is that the concept of free will contradicts the concept of an omniscient God (aka an all knowing God) An all knowing God knows ahead of time what will happen. If God knows ahead of time what you will do before you will do it then you cannot do anything other than what God planned. Because if you do something other than what GOd planned/forsaw, God cannot be said to be all knowing. Conversley, if you are only limited to the result that God planned for you, you cannot truly be said to have free will. Your destiny is already set within the context of God's great plan. Either we have free will and God isn't all knowing...or God is all knowing and we lack free will. Neither result is acceptable to the the mainstream religions. Its an inherant contradiction with no solution. Free will doesn't make sense.

Here's an example

let's say you are walking down a corridor:
At the end of the corridor are two identical doors. Does God knowwhich door you will take? If he does, is it at all possible for you to take the other door? You have no choice in the matter, you have no free will.
If God does not know exactly which door you will take, then he quite simply is not omniscient.

 

[StereoBull]

lawyerguy ..

good job in articulating your point.

 

[Chilling__Echo]

i believe in god but all i'm gonna say is lawyerguy rocks my socks off

 

[EmptyWords]

taws, if god supposedly knows everything and has foreseen the past present and future, he should know whether you want to live or not correct?

and to whoever said they knew somebody who would read all that and deny it and still say god is everybodies savior, those are the kind of people that get on everybodies nerves.

People like that run you around in circles over and over, they talk so much and say so little. When confronted with things they cant explain they play it off as gods will and that he does it for a reason and if we knew why we'd be god.

Thats utter BS. People like that are so ignorant it's almost unbelievable. They refuse to accept that there is even a remote chance they are wrong.

The kind of people that go around trying to force their beliefs on others are even worse. Why can't they realize that not everybody has to go to church every sunday to feel complete. Why can't they understand that not everybody wants to hear their crap.

 

[Remus]

The Babel fish

is small, yellow, and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it.It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything that mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn´t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don´t. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn´t thought of that,"

and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo´s kidneys, but that didn´t stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That about Wraps It Up for God. Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

 

[lawyerguy]

hi Taws,

Good question. My response is, in order to provide us with some real semblance of free will, God should have devised us a mechanism (God can do anything remember?) by which we are asked before we are born whether or not we wanted to be born. If God can create the heavens and the earth, surely he could have also gotten our informed consent before he pushed us into this world? None of the major religions address this point.

But even IF God asked us if we wanted to be born before we were born you would still run into the free will problem in my second point. That is, God would already know ahead of time what your decision would be. And any decision you make would still not genuinely be a product of your free will, unless you admit that God is not all knowing. And if you admit that God is not all knowing then you must also admit that God is not all powerful. (because if God cannot forsee your future decision then he does not have every power in the world) And the whole concept of the traditional God falls apart.

So in the end you have either free will ..or the traditional judeo/Christian/islamic God. You cannot have both.

I would like to same some positive things about religion however. I do think it is a great tool for the human species. If you find religion helps you out with your life and gets you through hard times, then I can find no fault with it. Religion is an extremely important personal aspect to most people. For myself, I cannot get beyond the logical contradictions and inconsistencies inherant in the belief of a God. But I do not disparage anyone's beliefs, and I would defend the right of anyone to believe how they wish.

 

[koyaanisqatsi]

I think the very idea of a God is absolute rubbish. But I refuse to completely give up on people...well, except Republicans.

And I believe people have a right to believe what they want, to the extent they can control their beliefs, but they have no right to impose their
( religious ) beliefs on me.

 

[Angie_05]

Perhaps God doesn't want us to have all the answers. Maybe he doesn't want us to know whether we have free will or that everything is guided by him, because if we knew either one, then what would be the point in living?

Also, who says that death is a punishment? For those starving children in others countries, it may be a blessing to be brought into a peaceful afterlife. Or maybe there is no afterlife. We just don't know, and no one can ever prove their point.

 

[jesuschristschild]

Let me tell you about myself first and foremost. I went to a private school for the first 12 years of my life. I went from preschool through 6th grade.

I used to be the kid who tried to do everything right and live by the word of god. I never cussed, i listened to country music for god sake. I had goals I had motivation. I was going to go somewhere, I was going to be something.

Now, here I am going into 12th grade. I have no motivation I've seen all my friends fall into drug use and I followed them for many months. Marijuana was the drug of choice. I quit, they still do it to this day.

I listen to metal/black metal right now. I don't care about ANYBODY but me, my friends and my family. Thats it. In these last 5 to 6 years in my life I have fallen from grace if you will. I have found that there is no god. Judging by the shithole we call earth, if there is a god it would be Satan. Thousands of people die every day and for what? nothing. Thousands of starving african children die every day. The entire country is infested with aids and other diseases.

How can you still say god exists and loves you. It's obviously not true. The middle east is for the most part a war zone where many have died for lost causes. There will not be peace in any of our life times. Peace in the middle east is a lost cause.

For the religious types that life there lives and base their morals on a false leap of faith. Don't worry about hell for you may very well be in hell and simply not realize it.

im really sorry for your hard life, Jesus will take you outta it, you have to believe in him though, ask for forgiveness with an honest heart,

seek his will and his face......you have to seriously believe though
he loves you more then anyone, but you know that sin seperates us, so you truely have to believe in him

i found out God is real through a paranormal experience with 2 other people......both of them are now firm believers in God, you have to believe his word and truely seek him.....he will take you away, and try not blaming him, the last thing he wants to see is your friends on drugs, he loves them, and he loves you, he loves you more then anyone loves you

i promise you, if you truely do his will he will amaze you

'thou shalt not bare false testimony'........seek not just his will but a real relationship with him
the second you feel that holy spirit i dont believe you willl ever doubt again

much love to you

and your in my prayers

LOVE YA

JAMIE

 

[jesuschristschild]

hey JCchild, lets say someone used to be a firm believer, this is all hypothetical of course, i am in no way talking about myself , but anyways, that person has lost their faith for whatever reason and turned away from what they used to believe. how does one go about getting that faith back? i was much happier when i was a strong Christian and now im so miserable and want to die every day of my life. i feel like im being punished for something, life is just so hard anymore. i made some mistakes tats seemed to screw everything up for me for the rest of my life, sometimes you cant recover from what youve done to yourself and i really have fucked up bad. i just have so much doubt about Jesus and God now whereas i used to go to church every week and pray daily and be extrememly happy. now im just the opposite and find that i cry myself to sleep most nights. i really hate myself and my life and just want to find my faith again to make me happy, which i know its wrong to seek him just for the selfish reeason of happiness but damn its so fucking hard living anymore and i feel like eventaully im just not going to be able to resist any longer and finish the job i started years ago and get me out of this place. so anyways i guess im asking how does one make himself believe like he used to believe and become happy again? i really hate my life now and want to change.

number one.......ask Jesus for forgiveness with an honest heart, go to him as you would anyone you done wrong that you want forgiveness, Jesus is a person, so you must realize that when we go astray it hurts him, so love him as someone you hurt.....but in no way is it too late, dont let satan trick you, John 47 Jesus said.....I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life........

none of the words in the bible can be broken, God is a perfect God, and his word is perfect, its the churches that make the mistakes....understand in your heart that God wants you when you pray, so pray for him, that he may forgive you and have you back, he wants you back, you just have to love him by giving yourself back to him with an honest heart

John 6:44 Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and i will raise him up at the last day

your desire to go to Jesus comes from God and not yourself, so have heart

John 6:37 - 'All that the father gives to me will come to me, and all who come to me i will never drive away

he accepts EVERYONE who comes to him, whether you went astray or else you never knew him, honesty is main thing

http://www.o-bible.com/

thats an online bible, king james version and also basic english

http://www.sinnersprayer.com/

that site has a the plan of salvation for you, get to know Jesus also, hes God in human form, proved in Isaiah 9-6

9:6 For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.

let the bible lead you and not mans opinion, people will say things that are wrong, know this, the bible is right.......its perfect all the way through......it says in the bible that every word is God breathed

the best thing i ever done in all my believing would be after i was saved.....i read Jesus word and got to know him as a person, when i pray i imagine that person, and i show all my affection and i lean on them like i would a person, like a girl, i give him my heart like that, and my relationship with him is amazing, God made us for relationship, if its only rules, then its religion, we need God

hope this helped, feel free to ask any thing though,

satan is your new enemy, so be strong, and hold your faith

hes going to be there every step of the way telling you that you cant do it, and he will always hit your biggest weaknesses

but dont listen to him, just pray

much love to you

May God Bless You

your in my prayers

Jamie

 

[EmptyWords]

Here is a thought I had the other day.

When people are talking to invisible beings during hallucinations and such. Schizophrenics for example. We throw them in a mental hospital and lock them up.

Millions of religious people "pray" aka talk to an invisible man in the sky. Yet we create places for people to do this by the masses all together.

 

[countrybumpkin]

All these arguments about God and whether or not we have free will seem to be just an excuse for childish rants about being frustrated with your place in life and having someone to blame it on. None of us ,being the limited creatures that we are , could ever even hope to be able to grasp the concept of what a supreme being would actually be like. The idea that God is 'an old man in the sky' (to quote George Carlin) is just a primitive idea so that artists can make pretty paintings . God is a being of pure energy and will , nothing like our primitive notions of what 'He' might be. And just for the sake of argument , wouldn't giving mankind the knowledge of what might be the punishment for sin and indulgence , yet still allowing him to sin and indulge himself qualify as free will? If you choose to sin and indulge and are in the end punished , did you not in fact exercise free will in making the choice to do so ?

 

[EmptyWords]

amazing, I forgot I even made this thread.

jesuschristschild or whatever, I will never seen"god" because i got over my SA during a period of my life where I was moving away from God.

also could you answer a question for me? God claims to love everybody regardless of ethnicity etc etc. Then why does he condemn those who don't believe to eternal pain and torture. Sounds to me that if there is a God he is a power tripping asshole.

Also, I blame nothing on god, for blaming things on god would imply that god does exist and i truly believe he does NOT exist.

I believe much of the human population is far too self-righteous. Why does there have to be an afterlife. I firmly believe when you die you are dead. end of story. there is no after life.

 

[redlady]

EmptyWords wrote:

Here is a thought I had the other day.

When people are talking to invisible beings during hallucinations and such. Schizophrenics for example. We throw them in a mental hospital and lock them up.

Millions of religious people "pray" aka talk to an invisible man in the sky. Yet we create places for people to do this by the masses all together.

That's a very good point. Although i like the positive things religion can do for some people, i personally hate the double standards of the stuff.

 

[lawyerguy]

Hi

Hi countrybumpkin,

I tried to resist responding to your post but I guess the debator in me couldn't resist. I respect your beliefs but I want to make two points.

You said:

All these arguments about God and whether or not we have free will seem to be just an excuse for childish rants about being frustrated with your place in life and having someone to blame it on.

It is probably true that a lot of people who don't believe in god, don't believe in god because they are unsatisified with their lives and they blame god because they think he let them down in some way. This would be an emotionally based reason to not believe in God. Conversley there are a lot of people who believe in God simply because they were raised in a culture and family that believe in God and never examined the issue critically. Others believe in God because life would seem empty without a belief in God. These are also emotionally based reasons. One can argue whether or not emotions can be a source of legitimate knowledge about the existence of God, but it is unfair to impinge upon the beliefs of non believers of God, just because some of them base their beliefs upon emotions. A lot of believers of God base their beliefs upon emotions as well.


For myself, I do not believe in God, because the idea does not make logical sense to me. My beliefs do not stem with my frustrations with life. I have frustrations like anyone else does, but overall I am relatively content with my existence and my place in the universe.

Second point.

you said.

And just for the sake of argument , wouldn't giving mankind the knowledge of what might be the punishment for sin and indulgence , yet still allowing him to sin and indulge himself qualify as free will? If you choose to sin and indulge and are in the end punished , did you not in fact exercise free will in making the choice to do so ?

God gives us basically two choices.

1) Do things his way or
2) Go to hell.

The second "option" isn't so much a choice. Its a threat. the second "choice" is meant to coerce the chooser into opting for the first choice. It isn't the same thing as going to a grocery store and choosing between cabbage or carrots. The grocery shopper is not punished for choosing cabbages over carrots. In addition the grocery shopper can choose not to buy cabbages or carrots. We cannot opt out of the "choices" God gives us. (see my original checkers analogy). The latter is an example of true free will. The former is the result of coercion.

To illustrate the example more clearly we can take the analogous "choice" and place it in the context of everyday life.

Man comes up to you and points a gun to your head and asks for your wallet. You have two "choices" as well.

1) Do things the robber's way (ie give him the money) or
2) die at the hand of his gun.

The second "option" isn't so much a choice. Its a threat. Like the threat of damnation in the above reference, the second "choice" is meant to coerce the chooser into opting for the first choice. This is an obvious principle to everyone involved.

If you hand the robber your wallet at the point of his gun, would your decision be truly made of your own free will? the answer must be no. Or else any thug with a gun can legitimately claim that he acquired your money (or make you do anything he desired) of your own "free will" by pointing a gun at you and forcing you to make a choice.

The only difference between God and the man with the gun is that God is threatening you with a punishment much more grave than the robber. The robber is only threatening you with death. God attempts to achieve his aims over you with the threat of eternal damnation. Therefore the level of coercion by God toward you is infinitely greater than the level of coercion exhibited by the robber.

Country bumpkin basically implied that knowledge of the consequences of the choices is enough to establish free will. (ie. as long as god tells us ahead of time that if we don't do as he says we will go to hell, we have free will. ) If that were so, then the robber can establish that you gave him your money of your own free will simply by showing that he told you ahead of time what the consequences were for not complying with his wishes. Clearly knowledge of consequences is not enough to establish true free will.

In conclusion, God does not provide us with any meaningful choices that are sufficient to establish "free will" in the sense that most of us understands it. We had no say in the types of "choices" we are offered. (he did not ask for our input when he came up with the range of choices available) We do not have the free will to opt out of the choices God gives us. (we cannot escape the heaven/hell dichotomy that God presents us).

Forced choices made under threat of grave bodily injury or eternal damnation cannot be said to truly reflect free will.