SA vs AS

[Jordan]

Hello!

First and foremost, a disclaimer. You don't have to spend your time reading a long, boring and confusing post like this. But in the unlikely event that you decide to go ahead, please note that:

1) you've been warned, and
2) it is meant for a serious discussion.

Disregarding the above, you'll only waste your time and that of several misfortunate readers. Possibly, even mine (but don't count of this).

Clear enough? Now, here it goes.

Some time ago I came across to a site about SP/SA, where the author of the page was slightly annoyed for having got repeatedly questions about Asperger Syndrome. He claimed that it's a completely different animal, and wondered why those emails arrived. Perhaps, they didn't, in which case it was matter of a third syndrome, namely WHD (Webmaster's Hallucinatory Disorder).

I regret that I didn't keep record of the URL, but please take my word for it. If the subject matches the interest of this forum, I could seek some sites, if not that one.

Anyway, the question should probably be put in another form. The descriptions of SA and AS don't overlap that much, no doubt. But they might be related in another way. Namely, AS belongs to the autistic spectrum. As such, it's a neurological, inborn disorder. If you've got it, you've got it. Your brain acts differently from the norm, and social issues will always be a problem. If you're lucky, you might become very performant (and often, very creative) in other activities.

Let me try with an example on how two different people might miss a chance. Many of you will have experienced a situation where they can judge the aftermath like this: "What a pity, I fully understood what was going on and what I should have done, yet I was too shy and didn't act out as I wanted!" It occurred to me to didn't act not because of fear or something, but just because I didn't understand what was going on. Yet, remembering all details later, I realized that was all obvious. Matter of body language, non-verbal signs and so on. But anxiety wasn't to blame, as I was utterly unable to grasp the situation.

Ditto, for unwritten rules. Normal people seem to get them, unaware that this happens, but it works. To me, it takes time and the result is poor. Experience helped in part, but it's a costant flaw with which I must live for good.

Now, if you're born with AS, what are your odds to develop SA, which only takes a letters swap? I daresay that a person with AS will have abnormally high anxiety in many social situations, and all the symptoms of SA could appear. Besides, I expect that this happens at a very early age.

I wonder if any of you readers has got diagnosed AS (or other, such as HF autism), and if you can relate with the above. Personally, along the years I was blessed by a rich set of epiteths about my being crazy and/or retard, plus a number of smart evaluations about my looks, my sexuality, my ethics, my overall lack of worth, not to mention the most insightful remarks about my need to pretend to belong to human race.

What is surprisingly missing in this picture is the official diagnosis of any mental disorder that I might have. In a way, I feel ripped off.

But my guess is that my own symptoms overlap with several traits of both AS and SA, so I might well have both.

Thank you for your time (and I mean it)!

Cheers,
Jordan

 

[wistful_dementia]

My responses are long also: read if you dare

"Jordan" Hello!

I daresay that a person with AS will have abnormally high anxiety in many social situations, and all the symptoms of SA could appear. Besides, I expect that this happens at a very early age.

I wonder if any of you readers has got diagnosed AS (or other, such as HF autism), and if you can relate with the above.
What is surprisingly missing in this picture is the official diagnosis of any mental disorder that I might have. In a way, I feel ripped off.

But my guess is that my own symptoms overlap with several traits of both AS and SA, so I might well have both.

Thank you for your time (and I mean it)!

Cheers,
Jordan

Hey Jordan. Good to hear from you again.

I use to think that I might have AS because of difficulty making small talk. But, whenever I looked back at the cases in which small talk was made, I could picture the correct things that I could have said and done. I think my case is the fear factor... I go into fight or flight mode because of the adrenaline and my brain sorta shuts down things like memory and social skills that it takes to be witty, etc. The brain is more concerned with being able to move quick rather than think smart in my case. Because of fear of people growing up maybe I had more of a selective mutism case. My problem was ,and still is ,that I simply haven't been exposed to people enough in an nonagressive environment to develope normal conversation skills that a normal person growing up would have.

I agree totally that a person with another disorder can exhibit the same exact symptoms (or at least alot of them). Does this mean that having the same symptoms is the same as having SA disorder? I've asked myself the same thing before. While they might have separate biological mechanisms, i.e maybe cause by sharing some but not all genetic triats, etc., a person who has AS can find some relief in the same CBT methods used for a person who has SA. Will that person's AS disappear? No, but he or she can learn how to control their anxiety in social situation.

These are some questions that I am wrestling with myself. Okay, so SA is caused by biology, parenting, individual cognition, and our interpretation of society and our place in it, etc. But, can I train my mind to respond to social situations without anxiety despite the fact that I may have a biological predisposition or adversion to unknown people or large amounts of people? I believe that ,regardless of whether or not neurotransmittors and disposition cause our fear and subsequent irrational reasoning or if irrational reasoning causes our neurological respones and subsequent fear, through correct reasoning we can change our brains and learn how to deal with social issues without freaking out. But what I am worried about is 2 things:
1) this damn SA is sooo strong- I've made good progress, but what if I can't reach my goals of feeling comfortable around most people most of the time.
2) what if I do reach my goal to feel comfortalbe, but I still can't make casual conversation... scientist say that most people learn there conversation skills before the age of 26- I'm 30. I mean I can carry on somewhat complex conversations, but when it just comes to hanging out and making small talk it is very difficult. What if it becomes a vicious cycle- getting better as far as comfort, but then continually being rejected which may result in me reverting back to my same old SA self? What if I continue to be rejected and end up a lonely old man? Some say being alone isn't everything-- but most humans prioritize and value companionship the most after taking care of their basic needs such as food, sleep, etc. Well, I guess I have 2 choice: try regardless or just give up. I think I will continue trying as long as I have a life.

Sorry, if the above doesn't seem connected to your above posting, but your posting got myself thinking. As far as "Personally, along the years I was blessed by a rich set of epiteths about my being crazy and/or retard, plus a number of smart evaluations about my looks, my sexuality, my ethics, my overall lack of worth, not to mention the most insightful remarks about my need to pretend to belong to human race".... I can definitely relate.

I'm just curious, have you ever considered getting an official diagnosis on either AS or SA? I've been diagnosed w/ SA, nothing else.

Off the topic a little once again- it is so strange how people who don't have SA or any other disorders that may cause SA symptoms can try to blame our condition on being antisocial or hating people. Yes, we may be wary of people caused by abuse from family, but became adverse to people by just standing back and wathcing all the 'cool' kids bully other kids for whatever reason... being too smart, being too quiet, being to stupid, etc. etc. I wonder why these people never take responsibility and try to see outside of thier own egotistical views of how socilizing should be? I also wonder if these people confuse love (which a component of is empathy and caring) with just simply finding pleasure in socializing. Well, maybe that is only one definition of love, because obviously some people who can not feel an emotional connection with other people can still be reasonable and see the value in respecting and acting ethically towards them.

oh yeah, it is very possible to have two disorders at once.
Take care.

 

[wistful_dementia]

I hope someone can forgive me for cutting and pasting this link. It really has nothing to do with my ability to understand complex issues

Here's a list of some famous people who possibly might have had AS-
http://www.myautis.com/famousaspies.html

 

[JWH]

Perhaps I do... who knows. In some circumstances I'm very aware, but at other times I'm not. I have been tested and found to have very bad mathematic and problem solving capabilities but good long term memory and visual skills. I agonise over details, which mostly give good results, but I lose sight of the big picture which leaves other areas lacking. I can also do some incredibly stupid things when there is an element of procedure - which is part of the reason why I have a fear of working.

Sometimes, I don't even know if I've got SP because I fear my stupidity and insides more than the people. It's basically being outside and taking any kind of responsibility that bothers me. I don't get stressed that I'm falling behind in the social department either. Whilst others worry they don't have something planned for Saturday nights, I just have no desire to go out. What I get stressed about is falling behind others and making sure I've covered everything so that my stupidity is not shown. It's really painful being in the middle - knowing you've got something wrong yet not being able to do much about it.

 

[JWH]

Actually, thanks for mentioning this. Even if I don't have it, I've just looked into it and found this:

http://www.autisme-montreal.com/sectioneng/choosing.html

 

[wistful_dementia]

Perhaps I do... who knows. In some circumstances I'm very aware, but at other times I'm not. I have been tested and found to have very bad mathematic and problem solving capabilities but good long term memory and visual skills. I agonise over details, which mostly give good results, but I lose sight of the big picture which leaves other areas lacking. I can also do some incredibly stupid things when there is an element of procedure - which is part of the reason why I have a fear of working.

Sometimes, I don't even know if I've got SP because I fear my stupidity and insides more than the people. It's basically being outside and taking any kind of responsibility that bothers me. I don't get stressed that I'm falling behind in the social department either. Whilst others worry they don't have something planned for Saturday nights, I just have no desire to go out. What I get stressed about is falling behind others and making sure I've covered everything so that my stupidity is not shown. It's really painful being in the middle - knowing you've got something wrong yet not being able to do much about it.

Actually, I think most people who have AS lack in the social department but are very logical people who have the ability to solve complex issues (not necessarily math as you have pointed out). I believe that there is evidence showing that more women are born with the capability to learn social skills and language easier than men. Hence, there are more men with autism than women. Maybe Jordan can enlighten us more on that. But, never the less your hurt is still valid. Yours is a fear of being shown as stupid. I have a fear of being stupid when it comes to socializing- mainly making small talk. And still making small talk is important in making and maintaining relationships. Entertainment is as important as stimulating one's mind intellectually I think. Either way we all have our difficulties and different irrational thought processes that are a part of causing our SA.

Have you ever seen a therapist for your SA jane? It never hurts to talk to an unbiased person I think. My personal opinion is that as long as you are a good person and have a positive attitude and don't have problems in the social department then you are of value socially and shouldn't sweat it as to weather or not you look stupid. I'm not trying to sound patronizing- I really think being a good, caring person, and being able to carry on conversation is good enough. But, then again I have reason to be biased. So, I would recommend seeing a therapist if you haven't already.

 

[JWH]

Well, whatever it is that I have, it is quite real. Just recently I bound my report backwards even when I was trying my hardest not to! I just find myself doing the most bizarre things despite trying to control it. And no, I'm not dyslexic.

I've never seen anyone about the SP, but I was contantly being dragged along to psychologists when I was younger. It was diagnosed as ADD I think - the parents never mentioned it, but I was on Ritalin for a while. It took a long time for me to mature mentally and as a result I repeated the first year of highschool. I guess all I can say is that I'm a very hands-on learner. I have to be in control and full understanding before I can begin to contemplate many tasks. Everything has to be very clear and defined for me.

I don't know if I could handle a psychologist nowdays. I have an embarassing habit of bursting into tears for no real reason, just because of the pressure of it all. Shit, my eyes are watering even now.

 

[Anonymous]

awe, I wasn't trying to say that you don't have a valid problem. I believe you. And as far as seeing a therapist- I know about the embarrassment- my therapist was a very young and attractive intern. I am sure I was always blushing and for the first few weeks I didn't manage to say much to her at all. But, she did help me to get past SA issues- like going out in public or feeling relatively comfortable at work and in class, etc... I can also say hi to strangers, etc

Therapist are used to people who cry easily or excessively or blush or don't talk... that's there job and usually these people are understanding and empathetic by nature- that's one reason why they get those jobs in the first place.


best regards

 

[Panacea]

Hello Jordan.

Am I sensing hints of Lemony Snicket?

Anyway, yes I believe that most people with AS will develop some type of SA disorder. It is called co-morbidity when one condition overlaps with others.

There are many telling symptoms that only a person with AS will have, though, that have little to do with social anxiety. I have found it is really difficult for people with AS to figure out their own symptoms so it might do you a lot of good to find an expert and search for a diagnosis.

 

[Anonymous]

oh my god! what is Lemony Snicket? 8O

 

[Jordan]

My responses are long also: read if you dare

OK, I'll bite!

Hey Jordan. Good to hear from you again.

Thanks, you too!

I can relate in part with what you said about conversation skills, albeit for me things have steadily improved in healtier settings. I am barely within the schedule (26) you quoted. *whew*

Where we differ the most is that small talk, to me, is nowadays easy but I have no real interest in it. That, along with various social things, is often a need to socialize, perhaps to achieve a specific goal. Were it for me, I would only talk when I've something to say. I am aware of the fact that such a strict requirement, if enforced, could easily lead to the end of most conversations and be a serious threat for the very society.

Yet, even when company is available and not threatening, I am crave solitude and feel this need more than what you reasonably expect with SA. True is that all of my trouble comes from other people and I routinely recover my stamina by mumbling or dreaming alone. But my opinion is that it's more my natural than a habit due to bad experiences. As you said, all people, myself included, need company. But let me add that all people need solitude as well. Just like we need the light of the day and the darkness of the night. Think how a life with no privacy would be, even for a very outgoing person.

Sorry, if the above doesn't seem connected to your above posting, but your posting got myself thinking.

Which is the best comment you might have done on my post!

I'm just curious, have you ever considered getting an official diagnosis on either AS or SA? I've been diagnosed w/ SA, nothing else.

No way. I could have done it during my youth, but I wonder if it would have been a good idea. Medical history of a patient is a professional secret, but there are always chances that some information leaks out. And if it does, it can and will fall in the wrong hands.

But there is more. I spent the best part of my life (and most of my time left, unless I want to live a whole century) being myself in spite of all attempts by others to change me into a regular human being or a corporate drone.

I try to deal with the crowd without dismissing my own identity. Which has a price, in terms of stamina, pain and troubles. Society don't forgive you for being an individual.

At this point, knowing whether I have either disorder is more of a curiosity, that won't change my life. Whether I have AS or I'm just very introverted, might be a matter of labels.

As the last OT you've mentioned, I suggest to go ahead starting a new discussion. It sounds promising (and linked to my idea about society that doesn't encourage individuals as such)!

Cheers.
Jordan

 

[Jordan]

Hi Jane!

From what you say it transpires above all concern for others, whose judgements you've interiorized enough to believe to be stupid. Whatever this means. Speaking of stupidity, what do you think of the idea of a single number (the IQ) that is taken seriously as indicator of overall intelligence? Anyway, my guess is that SP is the cause and not the effect of your issues.

Thank you for sharing the link with that list of good/bad job. Pretty entertaining, and makes sense. Rather than criticism for its own sake, I find it more reasonable to relize what are the strong and weak points and make appropriate choices.

High school, as you mentioned your troubles there, does not provide such help. Same pace and same criteria of evaluation for everybody is a way to educate a bunch of comformists, and will be damaging for those that (for whatever reason) don't "fit in". Who knows whether in a friendly, encouraging setting, you would prove yourself much smarter than you imagined?

Cheers,
Jordan

 

[Jordan]

Hello Jordan.

Hi Panacea!

Am I sensing hints of Lemony Snicket?

Oh dear!

I've been caught! I attempted to disguise myself as Orangy Snickers, but now you've blown my cover.

Anyway, yes I believe that most people with AS will develop some type of SA disorder. It is called co-morbidity when one condition overlaps with others.

There are many telling symptoms that only a person with AS will have, though, that have little to do with social anxiety. I have found it is really difficult for people with AS to figure out their own symptoms so it might do you a lot of good to find an expert and search for a diagnosis.

I will surely do a lot of good to an expert if I pay him, but how such an expert will be called? A psy specialized in autism must be an autopsy.

Then it's settled. The next medical exam I will take shall be an autopsy.

Think about it! No need of anesthetics. Neither physical nor emotional pain. Have you heard of somebody who complained about the distress endured while taking such an exam? No way, of course! Nor, for that matter, side effects have ever been noticed.

On the tip of that, it is provided for free, even if your health insurance doesn't cover it - or you haven't one.

The only down side is the uncanny habit to communicate the diagnosis to other people (often, even strangers) rather than to the patient himself. I would call this rude, but I'm not particular.

So, thank you for the recommendation!

Cheers,
Lemony

P.S. I actually asked for a serious thread and didn't act as I preached. However, it's you who began! Anyway, I hope that you won't have hard feelings. Just review my answer to Wistful about my motives to not look for a diagnosis.

 

[JWH]

Jordan,

Well it's most likely to be a case of bad genetics.

My mother... as sweet as she can be is incredibly oblivious socially. She'll interrupt, introduce irrelevant topics and just not know when to stop. She just doesn't seem to be able to empathise, and as a result I've never had anyone to really talk to because she simply doesn't understand. I've never been able to communicate with her, laugh with her or cry with her. If I cry, she gets frustrated or comes up with bizarre suggestions as to how to stop it. Nowdays, I just try to ignore the obsessive and irritating behaviour but obviously it still bothers me.

My father on the other hand is highly critical and also hard to communicate with. He sees things superficially and will not have the patience to look further even though he does have the capability. He just tunes out if you go into details.

High school was not a problem once changing schools. Never was an A student, but I performed in areas which interested me... mostly English and Art. I was taught under the Dalton system which did mean I had to take a bit more responsibility for my learning and was successful in that respect. I was probably at my worst in primary school. Uni has been a breeze apart from one first year subject which involved a lot of exams.

Regarding the link, I found it interesting as it does state the obvious for me - my education, interests and skills tend to lie in table 2. Although that doesn't give me anything new to work with, I do know that I would have a lot of trouble with table 1. I did work experience with a pastry chef and while it was not very social, it was incredibly difficult because I was expected to retain all information regarding recipes upon being taught. I just simply don't work that way which is part of the reason why I have chosen an education with few exams. Even though all my work is still last-minute, my memory is not a major concern in this area. I guess I just need a job where I can choose my pace and take it slow if need be.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Panacea]

Guest: Lemony Snicket is an author of "children's" books. I use quotes because I know many adults who have enjoyed them as well- myself included. A movie is now coming out with Jim Carey- A Series of Unfortunate Events.

Jordan: Have you been to the OASIS website? It lists some pretty comprehensive lists on pointers for AS. The main thing is how you were as a child, because unlike SA, AS is there from the beginning. While people with SA may have early memories of things that helped shape their anxiety, people with AS will have had early *behaviors* indicative of the syndrome.

For example, an inability to understand body language. There are also disorders that many Aspies have in addition to AS, like dysgraphia (a problem with fine motor skills- difficulty learning to print, and writing in chicken scratch), prosopagnosia (inability to distinguish faces) and SID (sensory integration disorder). SID can cause odd sensory behavior in Aspies or Autistics by causing them to be hypo or hypersensitive to touch, smell, taste, and sound. Light touches may feel painful, loud noises may cause visual disturbances, etc. Sometimes people with SID seem to have hallucinations when in reality their brain is processing a sound as a visual or vice versa. It can be difficult to explain or catch.

It is these additional disorders (there are more I haven't mentioned) which really benefit from a diagnosis, because most of them DO now have treatments which can re-train your brain into understanding input properly. Sensory problems can actually be addressed so that light touch is no longer painful, etc.

Another risk factor for AS/Autism is a family history of autoimmune disease. Thyroid disease & rheumatic fever are the most commonly reported, though others like Diabetes I, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis etc. are still involved.

Anyway- check out the Oasis website if you have not already:
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

 

[Anonymous]

The main thing is how you were as a child, because unlike SA, AS is there from the beginning. While people with SA may have early memories of things that helped shape their anxiety, people with AS will have had early *behaviors* indicative of the syndrome.

I agree w/ everything you have said. But, I can remember being very, very, extremely shy as a child. That leads me to believe that the foundation for SA was at the least there. Meaning that I was at least predisposed to it or maybe even SA at this early age. This first memory was when I was 4 years old.

 

[Panacea]

There is a theory that one of the reasons some people develop SA is because they are more sensitive from the get-go. I remember hiding underneath a table to avoid unwanted affection from my mom's visitors. I remember suddenly developing a powerful body-image modesty around age 5. Other similar things, too.

 

[Jordan]

Hi Jane!

Thank you for sharing all those details. I won't enter in family issues, but I see how many of us have not been lucky.

My school performance has been more or less average until high school included. At Uni, tables have been turned. I've was unquestionably the best of my class, and graduated with the max. My own talent for the matter and the occasional lack of abuse made it possible. Funny, huh?

Finding a job fitting your needs is well possible. You just need an employer who appreciates accuracy over speed. You might also wish to use tricks to help memory, the simplest being to keep written records at hand. Since of your artistic performance, have you ever considering a related profession? Maybe creating your own art home.

Cheers,
Jordan

 

[Jordan]

Hi again Panacea!

I will check the Oasis out straight away. Thank you for the link, and especially for your insightful post. Again, hope that you'll forgive my possibly misplaced dark humour. You are now dead serious, I see. May I ask where your familiarity with this subejct comes from?

I forgot to specify this, but I've always been different from others. I was a misfit in school since the first day. I kept living in my own world, or trying to. While reading descriptions of kids with AS, they give a pretty accurate picture of what my childhood has been. As I've must have mentioned, I was poor with body language. Some of my painful memories record situations (in my teens, but one even in my twenties) were I didn't realize that I was surrounded by people looking at me with mockery. I only figured it out later. Now, a person with SA can be paralyzed by fear or clouded by emotion, but in those specific cases neither applies to me. I was neither anxious, nor disturbed in any way that I know of. I can't see an explanation solely based on SA.

I don't match you description of SID. Yet I've always been hpersensitive, especially as a kid, with all senses. Not at the point to be hurt by touch, but being touched were often annoying, and I was overly ticklish (at the point to react at the sole thought).

For physical pain, this has worn out and possibly right now it is normal. Aaaaaaaagh! (excuse me, a hyppopotamus fell on my finger). Same for reactions to physical touch, no longer ticklish as I was.

Is my skin different now? Then perhaps I'm not an aspie, but an asp.

Reptilian greetings,
Jordan

 

[Panacea]

Jordan: My husband has AS. He is a classic case, with "weird nerve problems" as he puts it and a childhood full of being misunderstood.

Yes, not realizing you're being mocked is an aspie trait, but I know people who are not aspie who have been there, too! SID manifests in different ways in different people, so who knows. It can be treated by certain touch therapies, maybe you bungled into your own treatment (adult aspies tend to have bungled into many of their own coping strategies).

Anyway I hope that you find some information that helps you at OASIS.